Basement or Cellar? Read the facts and you make the call!
Do I have a basement or a cellar? I’m trying to figure out what I can legally do with my basement/cellar space for my own family use (i.e. putting in shower/bath). The basement was configured to be accessed directly from inside the ground floor apartment (used to be accessed from the common hallway) by the…
Do I have a basement or a cellar?
I’m trying to figure out what I can legally do with my basement/cellar space for my own family use (i.e. putting in shower/bath). The basement was configured to be accessed directly from inside the ground floor apartment (used to be accessed from the common hallway) by the previous owner (this was all done with construction permit from what I see on the DOB site as part of a bigger renovation). I know this issue has been covered a ton, but I’ve read those posts and am still unsure so I need people to please hear out my situation and see what you think…
From what I’ve gathered, the front window height (or sill height?) in relation to the curb height is the big factor, correct?
Here are the facts (maybe even more than needed), you make the call:
Window in photo is looking out on street.
The concrete sill, a few inches below the bottom of window, is basically at the same height as the concrete slab which makes up our front yard.
However, the concrete slab in front yard is raised about 8-10″ up from the sidewalk so when you come in our front gate you step up (our whole front property is raised up over the sidewalk/curb height). You can see our front gate in photo- it may look like its bottom is level with car on street, but its not. So our property is above sidewalk level.
From bottom of sill down to basement floor is 48″
From bottom of sill up to drywall ceiling is 42″
From sill to bottom of window frame is about 6″
Total height from drywall ceiling to basement floor is 90″ or 7 1/2 feet.
So clearly we appear to be more below ground that above, but….
If the height from floor to sill is 48″, you could say that is the same height as the basement floor to the level of the concrete front yard. But is it all in relation to the sidewalk curb height? If so, then since the sidewalk is a step down from our front yard then that makes out basement floor to sidewalk curb level about 8-10″ lower, since the front yard is raised up. In that case, we would then be more above ground (i.e. the ground at the curb) then below.
Have I lost everyone yet?
Any important info I left out?
Does the backyard height matter at all? Back there, we’re significantly more under ground level.
Also, there is a full height door both in the front under the stoop and in the back of the building, plus interior stairs leading back into the apt (if that matters).
You make the call- basement or cellar? Hmmmm…..
Basements are allowed to have 7 foot ceilings:
“No additional room shall be created unless made to conform to the requirements of this subchapter except that in basements of one-family dwellings existing on January first, nineteen hundred eighty-two, and in basements of all other dwellings existing on January first, nineteen hundred forty-eight, the minimum clear ceiling height may be seven feet for the minimum area.”
taking off the ceiling drywall is probably not a way out because of building code restrictions (i bet there is plenty of wiring and plumbing under that drywall). That said, i have seen many people getting away with a 7 1/2 ceiling height in a basement. If the sidewalk is less than 45 inches higher than your basement floor you should be able to get a permit.
Ooooh- didn’t think of that, landl0rd.
What if I take off the ceiling drywall- can I add on the space up to the floorboards above? 🙂
one side note: it appears that your ceiling height of 7 1/2 is below the min of 8 feet required for a living space. You might want to check on that as well.
barc – that’s true, but I’ve had plan examiners insist on defining the floor heights relative to the base plane, and that base plane be derived from the elevation of the ground at the front corners of the lot.
In a case like this, I would consider filing a preconsideration. I would get the survey and do the math. If the distinction between elevation at street wall and elevation at curb is the difference between basement and cellar, then file the precon and get a definitive answer. It’s a pretty easy thing to file and it’s relatively quick. The answer will pave the way for you to move forward without worrying about the correct interpretation.
OP here– thanks for all the advice and information.
barc, so if that is the official definition of “curb” then I should be good. compared to the elevation of the “sidewalk meets street” curb, the basement/cellar is more above ground than below— right?
“average curb” would be for a sloping street. the elevation is the top of the curb.
the curb is the thing that separates the sidewalk from the street. it is either concrete or stone.
OP again– so when you say “average curb”, how would that be figured?
I suppose part of my raised front yard is technically counted as the curb since it’s past my property line so is that averaged with the elevation of the actual curb next to the street?
And Jim, how can you have both a cellar and a basement? Don’t you have to technically go with one if it’s a close call?
jim & op … the 50% above or below is usually measured from the average CURB. i have seen places with high front yards, think 3rd street in the slope, that are actually basement, even though they look like cellars.
if dob has a c of o that says basement, this should answer the question. if not, a determination survey can be done by a land surveyor for a couple of hundred dollars. all they do is locate the curb height (elevation) and the heights (elevations) of the first floor and the lower floor. based on these numbers, you can determine whether you have a cellar or a basement.
if you determine that you have a basement, and there is no c of o. spend the time and money to get the c of o with BASEMENT on it. then it will be official and on the record. in the long run it will save all kinds of questions and worries.