Basement or Cellar? Read the facts and you make the call!
Do I have a basement or a cellar? I’m trying to figure out what I can legally do with my basement/cellar space for my own family use (i.e. putting in shower/bath). The basement was configured to be accessed directly from inside the ground floor apartment (used to be accessed from the common hallway) by the…
Do I have a basement or a cellar?
I’m trying to figure out what I can legally do with my basement/cellar space for my own family use (i.e. putting in shower/bath). The basement was configured to be accessed directly from inside the ground floor apartment (used to be accessed from the common hallway) by the previous owner (this was all done with construction permit from what I see on the DOB site as part of a bigger renovation). I know this issue has been covered a ton, but I’ve read those posts and am still unsure so I need people to please hear out my situation and see what you think…
From what I’ve gathered, the front window height (or sill height?) in relation to the curb height is the big factor, correct?
Here are the facts (maybe even more than needed), you make the call:
Window in photo is looking out on street.
The concrete sill, a few inches below the bottom of window, is basically at the same height as the concrete slab which makes up our front yard.
However, the concrete slab in front yard is raised about 8-10″ up from the sidewalk so when you come in our front gate you step up (our whole front property is raised up over the sidewalk/curb height). You can see our front gate in photo- it may look like its bottom is level with car on street, but its not. So our property is above sidewalk level.
From bottom of sill down to basement floor is 48″
From bottom of sill up to drywall ceiling is 42″
From sill to bottom of window frame is about 6″
Total height from drywall ceiling to basement floor is 90″ or 7 1/2 feet.
So clearly we appear to be more below ground that above, but….
If the height from floor to sill is 48″, you could say that is the same height as the basement floor to the level of the concrete front yard. But is it all in relation to the sidewalk curb height? If so, then since the sidewalk is a step down from our front yard then that makes out basement floor to sidewalk curb level about 8-10″ lower, since the front yard is raised up. In that case, we would then be more above ground (i.e. the ground at the curb) then below.
Have I lost everyone yet?
Any important info I left out?
Does the backyard height matter at all? Back there, we’re significantly more under ground level.
Also, there is a full height door both in the front under the stoop and in the back of the building, plus interior stairs leading back into the apt (if that matters).
You make the call- basement or cellar? Hmmmm…..
Hey Friends:
Check this link to the “definitions” section of the 1968 Building Code; look under “basement” – it is, well, “definitive:”
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/bc27s2.pdf
This definition is still THE definition. I’d feel pretty confident that “Stickerhappy” has a basement here. BTW, a cellar is any subterranean space that is more than 1/2 below grade. That’s in the definitions, too.
Cheers!
You can have a cellar and a basement, or you can have either one, without the other. I’ve seen it each way.
“3′ on st” = three feet onto the street. Yes, your curb and gate are 3′ beyond your property line. This is not altogether uncommon.
Since you didn’t mention it, I’ll assume there are no elevation marks on the survey. Too bad. That would have made this much easier.
The point midway between floor and ceiling (45″ above the floor) must be above the ground (concrete, whatever) 3 feet on your side of the gate. That might hurt your case as the ground is probably higher there than beyond the curb, making your basement floor lower, relatively speaking.
If you’re really considering your options you should check into that previous renovation. See what you can find out from the DOB filing forms. If you can’t get anything there, you might call up the people who did your survey and ask if they have grade and basement/cellar elevations. If they don’t, they can come out and take them for a few hundred dollars.
If you want, give me a call or email me the address and I’ll see if I can tell anything from the DOB site.
jim@urban-pioneering.com
Checked my survey- it says that step down and where my front gate is located is ” 3′ on st “.
Does this mean that whole curb and my front gate are technically past my property line?
Would this mean I need to count the raised part as my grade level to compare with?
OP again– so it’s completely about how much above/below the basement is in comparison to the grade outside then?
And is this usually the sidewalk/curb grade or the front yard grade? Where do most buildings’ property lines begin?
The building has no C of O.
I always thought the difference was that the “basement” level has another “cellar” level below it.
The status has nothing to do with the window height, except that you may need to use that to help establish the grade level outside. If your ceiling is 90″ high (above the floor) then the point 45″ (half of 90) must be above the average grade in front of the house to be a basement.
Therefore if your sill is at 48″ above the floor, it must be 3″ higher than the grade outside.
Where do you measure grade? That depends upon where your property line is. Sometimes it’s the sidewalk, sometimes it’s within your “front yard” if you have one.
Do you have a survey? If so, that will tell you where the property line is. It might even tell you what the basement/cellar height is and the height of grade at the property line. It’s relative to the mean water level so it’s likely to be between 80.0′ and 130.0′ or so, measured in whole feet.
Do you have a C of O? If so, that’ll definitely tell you what it is. Have you looked on the DOB site for the renovation you mention? There’s a chance that this information is listed there.
Hope this helps.
Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP
Urban Pioneering Architecture
If you look in the photo, from that sill (ledge thing) under the window, it is still 48″ down to the ground. Sorry, I should’ve taken a photo back a few steps to show the full situation.
OP here- no, its not totally above ground. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Going in relation to the level of the front yard concrete it’s more below ground.
Going in relation to the level of the curb it would seem to be more above ground- by a few inches I think.
This is a basement. The space (if I am reading this correctly) is entirely above the average curb height. Since it needs to be only more than half above average curb you’re ok. To my knowledge sill height is irrelevant.