Moving Fences
Two related questions re fences. My Cobble Hill neighbors are adding a large addition to their small row house (one of 4 including ours.) 1. They claim our fence, which was built along the line of the jury-rigged fence that pre-existed our ownership (I have pics) is inside their property at one end. With their…
Two related questions re fences.
My Cobble Hill neighbors are adding a large addition to their small row house (one of 4 including ours.)
1. They claim our fence, which was built along the line of the jury-rigged fence that pre-existed our ownership (I have pics) is inside their property at one end. With their new construction they want to take down the whole fence, see below, and “move our fence” within what they claim is the property line. I was once told that if a fence existed in a certain area for a certain length of time that it was yours, so to speak. We have been in our house nearly 15 years, we put the fence in at least 13 years ago, our neighbors have been in the house far less than that. Can they really move our fence? How can I find out before something happens?
2. They want to remove the whole fence so they can build to the property line and make a “more attractive” finish. This involves letting them into our yard and allowing workmen to work over my well-established border plantings. The alternative is a cinder-block side. We agreed in principal last winter when the work was supposed to begin, it still hasn’t. Now, I’m increasingly nervous about what’s going to happen in the middle of the growing season, to say nothing of what the digging is going to do to my plantings.
Any advice? THANKS.
Thanks for all these helpful comments. They gave both perspective and helpful advice.
We have been nothing if not accommodating and friendly, but the work was supposed to start before Christmas when I was much less worried about the plantings. I’m also worried that I’ve actually been too willing to agree to let them do what they need to without sufficient protection for our home and property. What they’ve offered to do so far will not cover either the inevitable cleaning that will be needed nor the certain damage to my yard.
sorry, I didn’t read everything reply here, so I may be restating something that had already been said, but here goes:
with the respect to adverse possesion, I’d read the law in the NYS Statutes a few years back when this issue came up with a piece of property someone I know had owned. In addition to the element of time, in order to make a claim for adverse possesion, one has to show a need, ie, using someone’s driveway to access otherwise landlocked property (which would be valid). So unless there is a genuine need, I think this is a tough one to claim.
But what do I know? I am a woodworker.
Steve
I’m going through this very thing right now, only on the building side, not the neighbor side. I’m going to start blogging this reno this weekend and will go into more detail on the whole process, but perhaps some personal direct experience might be helpful.
I am adding a 1-story addition to the back of my brownstone. I have lived here for decades and so have my neighbors on either side (and in back of me as well). I have spent months planning this addition, at great cost, with a licensed architect, an expeditor, a licensed structural engineer, a licensed contractor, etc. etc. As part of the DOB requirements, I had to have a new survey of my property — my original survey was considered too far in the past. The survey showed that the boundaries had not changed since I moved here (no surprise), but that the chain-link fence was not on the property line — in fact, it was inside my property about a foot on one side and six inches on the other, at the very back of the lot only. In other words, the fence narrowed in at the back. This was the second fence since we’ve lived here, and the installers had just taken the easy route to avoid the old concrete-filled post holes and put down new ones in different places. My neighbors on either side each contributed 1/4 of the cost (i.e., I paid half, they paid half).
When I was about to begin construction, I talked with the neighbors about the addition, said (in writing) that I would remove the chain-link fence for the period of the work and replace it at my own cost with a similar or better (i.e., nice wood) fence, along the property line. I supplied them with copies of the survey. One of my neighbors got into a high dudgeon, all prepared to dispute the survey ($1,000 to me, by the way), said “there are surveys and there are surveys,” was fully prepared to have his own property resurveyed and dispute the 12 inches at the back, until he consulted with his own architect, who asked why he would want to spend the money when the survey clearly showed where the boundary was and a new survey wouldn’t change the result.
Both my neighbors, retired and home all day, have taken a great interest in my project, phoning me regularly — pretty much once a day — with some concern about the renovation. There’s no question that this is disruptive to them — noise, dust, guys digging holes, concrete trucks, hammers, saws, etc., but we are working out a grudging modus vivendi for this renovation. Where I can accommodate them, I most certainly can and will do so in the future. This will certainly include some replacement plantings for one neighbor. My other neighbor just got a free fix to some of his foundation bricks that had obviously been leaking slowly for years. My architect has already spent considerable time with them, talking about the work and how it will affect them. He’s been a gem. I am determined to get through this reno, if I possibly can, still on reasonably good terms with both of them. It’s not easy, but it’s so much better than looking forward to the next ten-twenty years not speaking to each other.
So I suggest that before you start heading for the lawyers, talk to the people who are doing the renovation. A legal dispute over a few inches of property really isn’t worth it. If they take down the fence, have them agree in writing to replace it with the same or better — but on the property line. Have them take Before pictures of your plantings and your foundation and the back of your house. And take pictures yourself. If there’s any damage, I’m sure they will agree — in writing — to replace your plantings and repair any damage caused by their work. Try to work it out — cordial relations with the neighbors are worth so much more than a few bootprints in the perennial bed — and I say this as an avid gardener.
PS: my work was supposed to start in February or March — before the growing season. But such is the DOB that the time is now. I had to move whole shrubs in bloom. At this moment my two rose bushes are under a gigantic pile of dirt — but the uppermost canes are covered in red and pink blooms. Don’t despair too much for your garden — plants are incredibly hardy.
Seems like if they are building a large addition, they already had a survey done. Did they stake out the site? You most likely have your legal meets and bounds with your mortgage information. If I were you I would take up their offer to finish the cinder block facing you. If you feel they are competent workers who maintain a safe, clean job site, the temporary disruption will be forgotten. Of coarse I would make sure they provide you with all the legal documentation to cover yourself in the event of an accident.
Our small coop had a very unpleasant exchange with a neighboring building about a fence issue and had to pay for a new survey. Whatever you do, get a survey now. And seek an amicable arrangement, if possible, but not without finding out what your actual boundaries are.
“From what I have read here, they can seek legal access to your yard for construction.”
P, only true if no access available from their own property tho.
Good advice from everyone…I also have to add that it’s troubling that they already consulted you on this and got your approval. After that I assume they have spent many months, and probably tens of thousands of dollars for architectural, engineering, expediting fees.
And now you’re having second thoughts? Over what seems a very trivial matter?
Follow ‘i disagree’s’ advice to be sure that they’ll put everything back as they found it, and will put up a nice looking fence when they’re done.
But beyond that, your time to object was when they first approached you, not now.
One or both of you need to get a survey first of all to prove what lies where.
As to the first question, you are referring to the idea of acquiescence, which is related to adverse possession. I think this permits a person claiming to own land to point to customary recognition of the division between lands as sufficient to trump old surveys (which are usually entitled to a presumption of accuracy). This is a really tricky issue, as it seems very fact intensive and I don’t know how often it comes up in city land disputes. (It makes a lot more sense when you are talking about famrland disputes where a fence may help define a less accurate description in the deed.) For example, if the old fence existed for 20 or 30 years before that, that might be very probative (especially if the previous deeds transferring the property describe the property as the property customarily known as 1 Court Street or whatever).
OTOH, I think Governor Paterson signed a bill in the last two or three years requiring an adverse possessor to have a reasonable belief for their occupancy of the land in dispute. In other words, when you built you fence along the existing neighbor’s fence, did you believe that you were doing so to enclose your property or did you believe that you were actually taking advantage of the neighbor’s broken down fence? If the fence is really off (five or ten feet off in a typical 16 to 20′ wide lot), then I think most people would have trouble finding that you reasonably believed you were just occupying your own land. If it is 6 or 12 inches, then good faith is a lot more believable, IMO.
Obviously this is a new statute that is laid on top of centuries of old cases, so if you really want legal advice you should talk to an attorney. I am assuming your biggest concern is that moving the fence will end up disturbing your own plantings, so even if you settle along a new property line maybe they will compensate you for the re-landscaping (which they should if they are traipsing through your yard anyway).
As for the second, why do they need access to your yard at all for the plantings?