Garden Duplex
Many posts get close to the issue that we’re facing but I wanted to start another because I’m sure there are many people facing the same issue. We bought a condo apartment last year. A ground floor and basement/cellar duplex at the back of the typical 5 floor+ building built pre war on the foundations…
Many posts get close to the issue that we’re facing but I wanted to start another because I’m sure there are many people facing the same issue.
We bought a condo apartment last year. A ground floor and basement/cellar duplex at the back of the typical 5 floor+ building built pre war on the foundations of a brownstone. The basement/cellar retains the original Brownstone walls.
The apartment had been remodeled to have a bedroom, living room and bathroom on the ground floor and the Kitchen/recroom + powder room down stairs. Both floors have doors to the building stairway (having been separate units in the past). Downstairs is zoned as commercial and upstairs is zoned as residential. Downstairs has a rear door opening onto a back yard, L shaped across the back and along the side 20 feet each and about 15 feet wide. This area backs onto restaurants and a gym business and has a 10 foot high canvas wall (which we plan are replace with soundproof walling to reduce AC fan noise – 4 fans)
We’ve retained an architect to advise us on remodeling the apartment and yard. We want two rec rooms and full bath down stairs and Kitchen and through open sitting room upstairs with a powder room.
This is the issue and my question.
We’re advised that there should not be a kitchen down stairs and our remodeling would entail DOB inspection requiring us to remove it and put it upstairs (all plumbing it still upstairs although blocked off). The Architect advises us that the apartment had an illegal kitchen when we bought it and as such we may have a claim against the seller or their agent because without a legal kitchen it’s not an apartment. Also. Despite the fact that the only plans in existence (included in the offer documents) of the apartment show a full bath down stairs which has obviously been removed and replaced with a powder room we’re also advised that we cannot replace the powder room with a new full bath.
Should we stop all plans and look for restitution against the seller or just face it that we’ve been done as any legal case we may have would in practice be too expensive and lengthy to chase.
I’d add that i think the downstairs is a cellar rather than a basement (More than 50% below the level of the front side walk) but as i said above is zoned commercial and shows as a doctor’s office in offer documents.
I’ve done my best to search the DOB website but can’t find any plans for the apartment. The architect and expeditor (who’ve now spent almost $12k of our money) say that the DOB has lost all plans for the apartment.
Any help/advice very much appreciated.
I guess I don’t see what the big deal is about. If you want a kitchen upstairs, then put one in because that’s what’s legal. If you want a full bath downstairs, then put one in, but realize that you should make it a half bath when it’s time to sell. If you want to sleep in your cellar you can even though it’s not legal, but please don’t put your kids down there without 2 means of egress. I’d hate to read about them dying in a fire they couldn’t get out of.
I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you knew that on some level this set-up was not exactly kosher, is that right? I don’t mean to sound accusatory, but this statement about your own due diligence leads me to that belief:
“Asking our attorney to make sure that everything about the apartment is legal for instance. They said its fine lots of hand waving and assurances that I shouldn’t worry and that I just don’t understand how things are work NYC.”
That you’re buying a legal dwelling should be a given for your attorney. The very first thing your attorney ought to have done is warned you that this apartment had an illegal kitchen set-up and that this sort of situation might arise in the event you undertook any sort of reno or re-sale of the apartment. They ought to have advised you against purchasing it for this reason. Were I to consider suing anyone in this instance, I’d look first at your lawyer. The brokers involved in this sale should also be disciplined, IMO. They took advantage of your naivete; it happens.
That said, you’ve already thrown good money after bad in this situation. If you choose to file suit against the seller, your own incomplete due diligence will become a central issue in the matter. (I was a paralegal for many years, so I know of what I speak.) Regardless of the outcome, you will likely be stuck with a rather hefty bill for legal services on top of what you’ve spent for your architect already, and that’s before even considering what litigation would cost you if things escalated to that point. It’s tempting to want to make someone else pay for landing you in this mess, but, ultimately, you made the choice to buy this unit knowing, it seems, that the set-up was potentially a legal issue. Also bear in mind that the remedy you seek in this is unclear – what is it that you want exactly? To be rid of the apartment? A refund of your purchase price and closing costs? Some sort of monetary award to cover the cost of reconfiguring the place?
Were I you, if you are determined to renovate, I’d look first at how you can reconfigure the unit to conform to code. Your architect is telling you they are not willing to be on the hook for illegal work. True, there are probably numerous basement/cellars all over the city that have been let or sold as dwellings while the city looked the other way; demand for housing is responsible for this practice, I’m sure. Doesn’t change the fact that your architect wants no part of an illegal reno for obvious reasons that could potentially affect their business. Move the kitchen back upstairs and move your bedroom downstairs to the streetside of the unit, construct the rec room to open onto the garden, and settle for a powder room rather than a full bath. If you go to sell at any point, you’ll be glad you did; you’d hate to be the seller to someone else that this seller was to you, wouldn’t you?
A great, Brooklyn-based attorney who might be of help to you, if only to ease your mind, is Naomi Gardiner. I don’t have her number in front of me, but several friends have used her for their RE needs and been wholly satisfied. Good luck.
One thing that I have learned from numerous dealings with the DOB, both with renovations and new construction is that building codes are guidelines. If you can show that something can or should be done a different way, many times it will fly. I’ve even had inspectors fail something, or insist upon something that would cause such a problem that I’ve called a supervisor and had the supervisor overrule the field inspector ( and no, no money changed hands).
Thanks for the ‘frank’ replies many making the point that I’ve been a sucker here. That muck I knew already but the reason I posted here is to try and get get advice on the best way out of this mess. Buying advice has been very expensive and of very poor quality.
There are some helpful suggestions although I am not at all sure about finding another sucker.
We did what we thought was due diligence. Asking our attorney to make sure that everything about the apartment is legal for instance. They said its fine lots of hand waving and assurances that I shouldn’t worry and that I just don’t understand how things are work NYC.
Our Architect has pointed out that if the apartment was advertised and sold as an apartment the fact that it has an illegal kitchen would seem to indicate misrepresentation. His suggestions not mine.
I’m not a lawyer but presumably anything sold must be ‘fit for purpose’. The property was sold as residential apartment “with the commercial optionâ€. I have the literature.
Reply May 7th 9.24 is helpful although I believe the building predates 1929. Reading through it we fall short of some points. Are there different regulations for building predating 1929?
The ceiling seems to be 1 foot lower than it needs to be (including drop ceiling) or barely compliant without the drop ceiling for example.
The COO shows the ‘cellar’ as an office/rec room in conjunction with 1st floor apartment. And tracking down DOB documents my self (the expeditor seems to be poor value for money) there is a letter of completion dated Jan 06 indicating self certification for work filed as a directive 14 – what ever that is. Further poking around on the website reveals the name and address of the certifying architect, the Applicant, applicant of record and filing representative.
I’ve independently established that the kitchen was fitted at this time and that the former full bath was removed to be replaced by a powder room.
Clearly DOB knows nothing of this.
The Offer documents show a floor plan completely different to the actual apartment with a full bath down stairs and no kitchen. Pretty close to how we want it.
Since the DOB have no idea what changes were made is it not possible to request grand farthing (a term I see used a lot but frankly I don’t fully understand it) of the old bathroom and renovate on that basis?
Several replies refer to my wanting to sue someone. To be clear on this, If my current position leaves me able to sue the seller then I would risk the same outcome were I to sell. I’d like to know this. If anyone can recommend an attorney to advise me on this point it would be helpful. My experience of NYC attorneys so far (the one I hired to advise me on this sale) can only be described in language the moderator would removed.
Right now I’m just trying to find out where we stand. After that the plan is to fix the problem by bringing the apartment up to code which could be a big job.
All replies, cutting and otherwise, appreciated.
Nobody has suggested the real best solution: sell to some other sucker, find a new place and get it right next time.
Pay it forward, baby! Whoa!
3:41,
“we put our …….. full bath on the lower level”
…a set up that we could configure like this (we did work moving rooms and plumbing around”
Sounds like a job that needs filing to me.
The “downstairs” sounds like what is usually called “an english basement”. There are all sorts of fire and building code reasons for not alowing a kitchen, notable ceiling height and % of space underground. Here in Brownstone Brooklyn, it is where most people put their bedrooms.
You can call it a cellar or a basement or anything you want – except a kitchen. If there was one there when you moved in, I am shocked. Be thankful and renovate around it – it was grandfathered in.
I wold be really pissed at my broker for not alerting me to these legal issues. isn’t this covered under full disclosure?
3:41 nothing to file… the bathrooms where there and clearly stated that the lower level could be used as bedrooms in the offering plan.
said it was not illegal, so not a totally great example, but just like the layout in general, hence, my story.
in a previous life (um, marriage) had actually lived in a brownstone, and really prefer having the big living spaces on one floor.
3:30, what are you on about?
The OP clearly asks if they should sue:
“Should we stop all plans and look for restitution against the seller or just face it that we’ve been done as any legal case we may have would in practice be too expensive and lengthy to chase.”
And no where in my post did I mention the commercial zoning so I obviously never accused him of implying anything about such zoning. Where did you learn to read?