Sagging support beams, again
I am considering buying a 4 floor brownstone in a “looted” condition. It has this same problem: the top 2 floors have a slight dip towards the middle. The inspector checked over the beams and they are in a pretty good condition, but because there have been new bathrooms/tubs installed in the middle of the…
I am considering buying a 4 floor brownstone in a “looted” condition. It has this same problem: the top 2 floors have a slight dip towards the middle. The inspector checked over the beams and they are in a pretty good condition, but because there have been new bathrooms/tubs installed in the middle of the house the weight over time has sagged the floors. He said it’s not a big deal to jack up the floors, starting at the lowest level. The house needs a total rehab, so I’m not concerned about ripping through floors/ceilings. As many of you seem to have done this, what is a ballpark cost for this? Are we talking less than $10K per floor or more? Just any rough guesstimate is appreciated!!!
Thanks for all the response!! Due to factors beyond my control, I am no longer buying the house I described initially. The new house has the same problem, but only on the scale of one floor. It’s a 2 story brick house w/basement, and the top floor has a considerable sag. This has to be fixed; I get dizzy walking on it and the ceiling of the 1st floor looks crooked. I am looking now for any references to contractors who can do this kind of structural work. Also, I plan to move the staircase. Any leads??
( The complete internal demo of both 1st and 2nd floor will be taken care of by a different contractor before this structural work will take place.)
Bruce,
3:37 here. I should have specified that I assumed the stiffeners that I mentioned to be added would be hung to not only stiffen the joists, but recreate the level ceiling. I personally like two pieces of engineered wood (like that in the web of an I-Joist) separated by a cap (to form a “U”) and then hung under the present joist and glue, nailed and thru-bolted.
You may lose a little bit of headroom where the ends of the banana are higher than the dip in the center, but that won’t be more than an inch or two…hopefully or you have a bigger problem.
I wasn’t thinking about a dropped ceiling because as you mentioned, cost and ceiling height.
“Oh my God that sounds gross, why do people want to live in decrepit saggy old houses?”
Yeah, because you know, who wants to buy a property that is more desireable and increases in value so much more than newly built condos or new suburban houses?
Besides if you’re talking aesthetics, there is NO comparison. No stylish cool person I’ve ever known in my life didn’t much prefer an old house over new, sags and all.
1. I would not work with a contractor who is suggesting that a sag can be jacked out of a floor. That’s kind of like trying to get taller by putting your body on a stretching machine.
Jacks are useful for support when you are doing structural work on your house, and they can fix *very small* imperfections in levelness. But when you push a lot (as would be required to remove a sag) on one part of your house, that push or force travels throughout the house. Asking for trouble.
2. What you are repairing as mentioned above is a banana-shaped joist or a joist that is no longer pocketed well because of water damage or termites or whatever. These are mechanical fixes that do not require the kind of intense chiropractic work you mention. The actual solutions are specific to your situation, but look for someone to give you a quote who’s going to talk in terms of fixing the joists and not jacking away the problem.
I have done tructural work on quite a few older brownstones, and there are various “gotchas”.
Probably the wood joists are now permanently banana shaped. Were you to jack one up adjacent to a new support wall, one or both ends will now be too high. This effect is exagerated in your hallway, as it is the shorter arm from the fulcrum.
The other commenters above, notably 3:37 with whom I completely disagree, address primarily the situation of flooring, while ignoring the problem of ceiling.
All their solutions require metal stud or lathe to level the ceiling below, which uses height and adds expense.
What I do recommend is the wholesale replacement of all joists with metal beams in new pockets, 16″ on center. This supports the new sub floor adequately (assuming hardword flooring above)and makes a flat surface for the ceiling below. Fireproof, available perfectly straight in many sizes and lengths. Un-romantic, but this work can be done by merely competent crews, without requiring precision and judgement, qualities that are rare in NYC to begin with.
I don’t think 10K a floor will do it, with demo and materials, 20K is closer.
On the time, quality, dollars continuum, this solution is better on time and quality, worse on cheap.
Bruce
This is brownstoner.com, isn’t it? As I understand it, they are all about 100 years old, and all sag, 7:40. Every one I ever lived in did.
Oh my God that sounds gross, why do people want to live in decrepit saggy old houses?
Agreed, 4:47. I’ve owned two very old houses and lived in about 5 others throughout my life and every single one of them had sags.
Sags are cool! We have practically no straight lines in our hours–floors, walls, ceilings all slope this way and that. These are old houses–love it!