Stuyvesant Heights vs. Bed Stuy in General

I agree about the eloquence of CHP’s post.

However, having lived across the street from a project for several years and after several muggings and finally a homicide in the hallway of my ex-building, I have to say that the proximity to projects factored in a LOT in the location where I bought my house.

I’d like to think I have great faith in the good of humanity and so on and so forth when it comes to this sort of thing, but when the hallway of your building looks like the river-of-blood scene from The Shining, you tend to reassess your beliefs and prioritize the safety of your family over your social beliefs.

While I agree with VBS in his/her taste in architecture, I also disagree with the “structural” theory of poverty and social ills and think it’s a large part of what got us into this mess.

It’s a bit irrelevant what the structures look like if the education and social and economic means aren’t there. Concentrated poverty is bad no matter what the building looks like. After all, Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village aren’t that different from most NYCHA projects, architecturally speaking.

I do think physical structure makes a difference, but it’s only part of the bigger picture of social structure, policy, education, economics and empowerment.

CHP, your post is eloquent.

I wonder, though, why you wonder about the “toxicity” of living next to a housing project. Businesses tend to close near them, too, and it’s been this way forever and IMO it’s structural. This may be chicken-egg of me, but I think it’s not about the people in the project so much as it’s about the architecture.

Let me put it this way. One of the greatest things about BS is the feeling of security you get when people are on the stoops and streets watching and saying hello and whatnot. A project keeps that from happening, no matter who lives in it, because all that coming and going activity happens in stairwells and elevators, and people are funnelled in and out of a few entrances. This creates more density and more anonymity.

In addition to anonymity, this creates more blank zones–walls without much street activity punctuated by areas with a lot of activity–entrances. This feels less safe than folks on stoops or in stores all the way along a street. People stop wanting to walk by. This makes businesses close, and suddenly the area has become a “destination only” zone, and it is less safe because it has less traffic.

I’m not disagreeing with you as much as I’m wanting to see your vision. Long term stability for BS means figuring out what to do with public housing, how to develop well around it, because facts are facts. BS has a high incarceration rate, much higher than its crime rates. And living here means being a part of the *whole* community.

IMO, a city (or neighborhood) is not successful if rich and poor and middle-class people cannot live together in it. This is, potentially, the most beautiful thing about cities. NYC does a better job than most US cities, but we can do better.

I think part of the solution is making it less about things that people tend to feel bad and secretive about and not want to talk about (ie, poverty), and more about what we share (architecture and urban planning).

I believe we can figure out how.

Example. I know the projects in Ft. Greene went condo, but I don’t know the whole story. Did they go low-income condo, or regular condo? That could be an example of what to do or what not to do… depending on whether the goal was to squeeze folks out or give them a stake in staying.

Stuy Hts became an historic district because of the obvious beauty and importance of the houses on Stuyvensant Ave, and the surrounding blocks. It had nothing to do with anywhere else. The The Bedford Corners part of BS, which includes from around Bedford to Throop, Fulton to Putnam, more or less, should be an historic district, and I believe that is currently in the works, at least on a grass roots level. That also has nothing to do with creeping gentrification from Clinton Hill. Both of these areas stand worthy in their own right.

Stuy Hts would actually be considered more gentrified anyway, because of higher home prices and due to a growing commercial district with coffee shops, a book shop, and other retail stores in the nabe, bringing amenities that hadn’t been in the area for a long time. And to be frank, a growing population of affluent white homeowners in the area signals, at least to the outside world, that gentrification has begun. I don’t want to take the time or space to argue about the reality or perceived merits of that, but there it is.

I think it is inevitable that Bedford Corners will gentrify, it’s already started. That part of BS is larger than Stuy Hts, and has more significant architecture, and beautiful homes. Old time Bed Stuyers have always wanted to live on these blocks, and many people have been there for generations, and that includes a lot of professional and successful people. Bed Stuy wasn’t discovered yesterday.

The rest of BS will take longer to move on up, and unfortunately, you will see definite pockets of affluence next to pockets of deep poverty for years to come. In a fair world, the deep inequalities that are going to become more apparent in the near future need to be rectified, or we are all going to suffer for it. BS does have a lot of housing projects, most of Gates Ave from Marcy to Broadway is public housing, and there are housing projects scattered throughout the area. I find it grossly disturbing that people automatically equate living near one the same as living next to a toxic waste dump, but I am not living with rose colored glasses and know that there will always be that small element that are bad news, and prey upon their neighbors as much within the projects as without. If you live anywhere in BS, you are within walking distance of a housing project. That can also be said of most of the rest of brownstone Bklyn, too, so you have to decide to weigh that into your equation of whether to buy anywhere.

The cafes may be coming, but lets hope for long term stability, that economic help, jobs and job training, and hope come along with them.

I agree with anon 12:52!! And FYI a cab ride from Chelsea to Stuy Heights is $25. But the A train will serve you better in most cases.