Valuing "details"?
I keep looking at 1 family, 2 family, 3 family brownstones and limestones. What I find most tricky is the market value of original “detail”. Take three typical 3 or 4 floor 20×40 foot places on the same block: 1. needs gut renovation, but details exist 2. has a modern, or (yuk) generic, renovation but…
I keep looking at 1 family, 2 family, 3 family brownstones and limestones. What I find most tricky is the market value of original “detail”.
Take three typical 3 or 4 floor 20×40 foot places on the same block:
1. needs gut renovation, but details exist
2. has a modern, or (yuk) generic, renovation but lacks detail
3. is highly finished and detailed
How do they compare price per square foot? Does that reflect the costs of making (1) or (2) into (3)?
is restored detail usually “cheap” to buy vs putting it back when it doesn’t exist? For a place that lacks most detail is the only sane way forward a modern renovation (bust out windows, add light, open walls)?
I second Miguel’s comments. The reason why details are so expensive to repair/restore or replace where necessary is that there are very few craftspeople/aritsans with the skill to repair or replicate the details, and the materials (mahogany, marble etc) are extremely expensive too.
I too am a member of the “bought a dump” club, but with fantastic details which we’ve spent a lot of money repairing/restoring.
I don’t know exactly how to answer the question at hand, but I offer the following observations:
1) The number of houses with original details is diminishing as we speak. Somewhere, a developer is converting a bldg to condos, or a new homeowner on a thin budget, who doesn’t care for details is gutting a brownstone of all it’s original character. Rarity is increasing, not decreasing.
2) If you’re a detail junky like me, original detail counts for something, even though it can be faked.
3) It costs a small fortune to fully insure my building, specifically because of the details. My replacement cost appraisal (performed by two indep insur co.’s) comes in at around $1.5MM for rebuilding with “equivalent” detail, fit & finish. That is for construction, not land. After spending $500K on a only a reno, it’s not tough to see why. FYI, I think most bstones are vastly under-insured or insured only for a modern white box rebuild.
4) You cannot imagine the $$$ and agony it takes to renovate a bstone with details. This is one more reason a move-in condition, orig detail bldg goes for an extraorinary premium.
We bought a bit of a dump too, with some detail. As we go floor by floor we are restoring things where it is important to us (plaster, some woodwork) but not dumping tons of money into pretending we still live in the nineteenth century. I’m very happpy with the compromise and in fact would not want too much detail. I know most people here disagree with me! It’s definitely personal taste.
We bought a dump with decent details and a good layout; it wasn’t a super-fancy house to begin with. As others have said, it really depends on what you want in the end.
The advantage of buying a dump was that we were able to customize it for our needs–like having a powder room on the parlor floor and a large kitchen. And we weren’t paying for someone else’s taste. But you have to live through the renovation!
Also,you have to consider renovation vs. restoration. For example, we chose to laminate most of our failing plaster walls will sheetrock and used poly crown moulding. Esthetically it looks great, and was much more cost effective than repairing the plaster and running plastic moulding. We just could not afford to be sticklers for a perfect “restoration.” all of the time.
Not sure I answered your question, but good luck!
In answer to your question, I think that you have to see what means more to you, and go for the best you can afford, and do what you and your family can stand to live with for a certain amount of time.
For me, detail is really important, and I would not be happy in a house that had been totally stripped, and unless there was absolutely nothing else available, and the price was really, really right, I would pass. If I did take it, I would spend all the money I saved on salvage. The plus for this kind of house is that you really can make it your own, without the constrictions of the past.
I also enjoy renovating houses, and bringing a wreck that no one can see the value in, back to life, is a great challenge, so for me a diamond in the rough, assuming the price is right, is the way to go. I’m an option A person.
Of course, something detailed with little work also has it’s appeal, but I am not able to play in that ballpark, unless I won Mega Millions tonight, in which case the Pfizer Mansion is sold. Actually it would be fun, as it also needs a lot of work to fix it up the way I would want to, and I’d actually have the money to do it right. Wow.
I was told by 2 different appraisers that detail doesn’t mean much in terms of bank appraisals. They factor it in at the end, but it only adds up to a couple of points. For them, a beautiful parquet floor isn’t worth any more than a well kept linoleum floor. They are looking at structural integrity, bathrooms, kitchens, intact walls, ceilings, and number of units in the house.
But then, a bank appraisal isn’t the same as a selling price.
We went with option 1. Our house was a total mess but nothing had been stripped out. It has cost a lot of blood, sweat, tears and cold hard cash to get where we are now. I would estimate our renovation cost 30-50% more because of the attention we paid to restoring the details. It’s been worth it but definitely a huge commitment. And actually I love modern so if I found a great space in a great location without details, I’d have no qualms about doing a super-modern reno. Option 3 is only for the very affluent. These are the houses that in an area like Park Slope start over $2m and go up rapidly from there.
To buy a marble mantel (& most brownstones have about 8), it will cost you about $5,000.00 or more (so, to replace about 8, it will cost about$40,000.00). Then, to replace pocket doors with moldings, and you can’t buy stock molding to replace the old, original ones, that will probably set you back another $10-20,000. To replaster your ceilings with moldings, etc., you can count on spending several thousand more dollars. If forget what my estimate was to buy reproduction pocket shutters . . . I think it would have cost more than $1,000.00 per window! The bottom line is you cannot accurately reproduce and restore a brownstone to its original splendor unless you have a lot of money and time. If you buy a house that has no details and like the modern, sparse look, your renovations could be a lot cheaper. If you want to put back all the details, it’s difficult to find a good craftsman who can do the kind of carpentry, masonry, plastering etc. that existed more than 100 years ago. And when you do find one, you pay through the nose.
I certainly don’t have an answer for you, but my sweetie and I recently bought a limestone and I thought it was interesting that the bank’s appraisal said nothing about the historic detail in the home; it strictly compared the place to nearby homes of the same size, layout. Not that it mattered to us one way or another, but I thought it was odd that the appraisal calculated the costs of (mostly worthless) appliances for the estimate, but said nothing about the antique mirrors, fireplace, parquet floors, etc. — which are far more valuable.