Windsor Terrace Reno

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July 29, 2007

Whats cooking in the kitchen?

Inspired by the beautiful kitchen posted by Mr. Brownstoner a few days ago, I figured I'd share what we are planning in the kitchen.

It seems whenever I see an older kitchen that looks a little more timeless (as much as can be expected in an ever changing room like the kitchen), it seems to have white cabinets. And since we don't plan on remodeling this kitchen ever again, Im trying to go with something as timeless as possible. Ive been collecting photos of kitchens Ive admired for a while. You'll probably notice all of these kitchens are at least twice the size, 5x the budget and inhabited by much more fabulous people than we'll ever hope to be. So Im just taking the bits and pieces I can incorporate where possible.

Our kitchen will be at the rear of the parlor floor. Right now, this area is broken into two rooms that I suppose were bedrooms. Right now, the room at the back right looks like this:

The left wall will be mostly knocked out and the two rooms will the dining room/kitchen.

Its a little hard to imagine using my awful photographs but the plans make it a little more clear:

And here is my sketch up of what the view would be over the island:

We already have decided on the cabinets (off-white inset), sink (fireclay), & backsplash (some kind of subway tile), floor (wood to match the hall) finishes.

Still to be decided are countertops (soapstone or marble?), appliances, lighting fixtures & faucet. Any suggestions on those are appreciated.

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Comments

I would say avoid soapstone, because as lovely as it looks, it's so incredibly fragile. We used it in our last kitchen, and just knocking a pot against the edge would leave a tiny ding, putting down a glass of red wine would risk leaving a red stain. You can seal it, but that won't make it less fragile, and then you lose the lovely soft gray color. So after trying soapstone, I'd say go with granite. Marble is lovely, but has the same fragile qualities re: staining as soapstone--granite is still the best option.

Posted by: Anon at July 30, 2007 1:06 PM

I love your layout. I had my architect draw up similar plans but we were not able to get a full bath on the parlor floor. We but the half bath in the hall off the stairs (we were closing of the hall anyway to create separation from hte tenants upstairs). How did you manager to squeeze in the full bath; is your place wider than 19 feet?

Posted by: newbedstuy at July 30, 2007 1:09 PM

Thanks anon - Im aware that certain kinds of soapstone is soft but I actually like the patina the marks give it. Mr. Limestone isn't so keen on that look and thus we are not decided. I really want to avoid granite because as lovely as it is for some kitchens, I dont like the look for this one. Who knows, I may end up with granite in the end. As for staining - maybe you had a different kind of soapstone? The one Im considering can't be sealed b/c its not a porous stone. Maybe you had another kind that is porous and thus the staining issue? Ive heard that the stone from certain parts of the country have different issues.

NewBedStuy - The full bathroom was already there and pretty large - so we are just making the bathroom a little bit smaller to accomadate more kitchen. Taking out the bathroom entirely would let us have a much larger kitchen but we wanted to keep a full bath on the first floor. So we'll have a smaller kitchen and bathroom back there. The width isnt really a factor since the walls seperating the hallway are already in place and we aren't moving them. I think some homes that have more lavish middle/ back parlors have a different placement of the hallway - thats not the case for us.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at July 30, 2007 2:55 PM

I have always had the exact same type of inspiration kitchens as you have, and when we redid our kitchen went with off-white, inset (sort of shaker style) doors. While I love the way it looks, I would not do it again. Here's why: (i) even on high-quality custom cabinets, you will get hairline cracks where the wood on the cabinet facing comes together. May be that won't bother you, but it bugs me to no end. (ii) the little flat space created by the inset gets dusty and grimy super fast, and is hard to clean. Again, may not be a big deal to you, but if possible, get the type that has a tiny quarter-round type piece along the inset, if that makes sense. Will collect dust/grime in the corners less. (iii) they look far dirtier and are more difficult to keep looking nice than plain wood cabinets. Other friends who have painted white cabinets also end up with the same issues (looing beat up more quickly, tough time keeping clean, etc.) Just things to think about from a practical, non-Magazine photo perspective. I would definitely consider some sort of natural wood cabinets if I had to do it all over.

Also, I originally had my heart set on soapstone counters, and then considered honed granite. Once I decided to go with off-white cabinets (sort of antique white), and really started looking, I changed my mind. First, the gray/black color may not be as appealing if you are not doing pure white cabinets. Second, there are all the issues noted about about staining, or at least never looking clean (water streaks, etc.). This is a problem with a matter/honed surface. I was deadset against granite, especially shiny granite, but ended up with it on what turned out to be great advice from the stone yard guy. We ended up with a dark brown granite that is not "flecky", but that has a very subtle pattern that keeps it from looking shiny. (Hard to describe.) So, there may be some granite options to get the same look you want with the benefit of granite's duarbility. Anyway, just some thoughts. But it looks like your planned kitchen will be lovely no matter what. Have fun!

Posted by: Brooklyn Anon at July 31, 2007 11:41 AM

Thanks Brooklyn Anon. Who was the maker of your inset cabinets?

Im not sure I understand why your wood is cracking - what does that have to do with the inset? If anything, inset doors should have less of an issue b/c they are built to fit into each other without touching rather than hit into the face like overlay.

Ive heard a lot of naysaying about soapstone along with a lot of good reviews of it as well. So Im torn. I have a sample of the stuff at home and have tried to stain it to no avail. From what I gather, its nearly impossible to stain b/c its not porous. Its used in high school chem labs so I just can't see that its all that easy to ruin. Maybe Im just being naive but I don't understand how the feedback on this stuff can be so extreme in either direction. I think I may just have to go up to Vermont to visit some of it in person.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at July 31, 2007 1:58 PM

How about opening up that back external wall for full french windows, let some light in

Posted by: anon at July 31, 2007 4:10 PM

Do you want the dining room and kitchen togeter? I have an eat in kitchen for every day, plus a seperate formal dining room. When entertaining I can make a big mess in the kitchen and keep the formal dining room clean for guests.

Posted by: anon at July 31, 2007 4:13 PM

The back wall will have two large windows and a door with glass in it. Its a southern exposure so the whole space will get some nice light.

It would be nice to have a large eat in kitchen plus a formal dining room but we dont have the space for that if we want to keep our bathroom, living room and "music room". (and we do). We are pretty casual people so I can't imagine we'd need more than a casual dining space anyway. Im just hoping we can fit a nice large table for Christmas dinners. On paper, a table for 10 fits nicely but Im thinking it might be too cramped in there once its actually in place.

Posted by: MrsLimestone at July 31, 2007 5:10 PM

Love the look of your plan. A couple of comments:

1. You might want to consider pietra cardosa (fancy name for grey schist) for your countertops. We used it instead of soapstone and like it alot. It may not be quite as tough as granite but it's plenty tough enough for us. We haven't stained it in 7 years -- though I'm careful about quickly wiping up very oily spots. Pretty blue-grey tones (does darken with use) and lovely veining.

2. We did a smallish Ann Sacks subway tile as the backsplash,in a vintage green color with a clay colored grout (doesn't show the dirt). We made it quite high -- at least 3 ft -- to give a more period feel. Everyone admires it.

3. Make sure your lighting is strong enough. We used two pendants in the kitchen area from Rejuvenation Lighting. They are on dimmers so we can crank it up when we're cooking then turn it down while we're eating. Oh, and we also have a small sconce immediately over the stove (which is in in roughly the same locations as yours will be).

Good luck!

Posted by: NeoGrec at July 31, 2007 5:43 PM

You might consider turning the d/w 90 deg so it opens towards the back wall. Loading/unloading would be much easier and it's not any big change. Less interference with range. Possibly moving range 12" towards windows? Again, for less interference with sink.

Posted by: cmu at July 31, 2007 7:49 PM

I love white kitchens, I had one in L.A. and I actually didn't have too much a problem keeping them clean. Nor did I have cracks. Mine were the old original vintage kitchen cabinets from the 20's and were painted with high gloss paint, so maybe that helped? Because it wasn't a finish on it from the cabinet company. Just paint I could clean and even repaint if I wished. So maybe doing it that way is a better option for a white kitchen. Order unfinished wood cabinets then prime and paint them yourself once they're installed. It's certainly more authentically vintage looking to do that. Leaves you the option to paint the cabinets in colors in the future, too.

I'd get a white kitchen again in a NY minute, but here in our own limestone I needed to match the wood paneling in our dining room. Which meant I got medium to dark neutral brown stained cabinets. But I chose white countertops. I really dislike dark countertops with dark cabinets. Our countertops are Quartz. Caesarstone. I never see it mentioned on Brownstoner so maybe it's not as hip, but I love it. It's so low maintenance, and it's tough stuff.

For a faucet I love ours, it's a Franke. It has 3 handles, hot, cold, and "pure" for the under counter filter. The filtered water comes out the same faucet as the hot and cold. Which leaves you more counterspace, b/c you don't have to add a 2nd faucet just for filtered water.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 31, 2007 9:19 PM

NeoGrec - Love the look of pietra but Im concerned about its staining qualities. Its hard to judge if there is enough lighting when donig the plans but Im pretty sure we'll be in the "too much" category as we have hanging lights, recessed lights, uncab lights and a chandelier in the dining room. Everything will be on dimmers and seperate switches so I'll be able to shut the lights off when I dont need them. Which rejuvination lights did you get? If you dont mind sharing, I'd absolutely LOVE to see some photos of your kitchen.

Cmu - thanks for the suggestion. I dont think I want to move the dishwasher to a place that I can easily reach when standing in front of the sink but perhaps I can switch it to the other side so it doesn't interupt opening the oven door. Although then it might run into problems with the fridge door. Hmm..decisions, decisions.

Anon - Thanks for the input...im glad you didnt have any problems with your cabs. I won't be painting my own cabinets b/c I want the factory coating to keep it easier to clean (plus Im spending enough on these things that I shouldnt have to do the finish work myself) Years down the road, we may repaint when Im sick at looking at these so its good to know they can still look sharp after a recoat.

Posted by: Mrs.Limestone at August 1, 2007 8:50 AM

BrookylnAnon here. Sorry , I was confused about what you meant by inset--I mean the panels on the doors were inset (or recessed, i.e., shaker-style), not the doors themselves--that was out of our budget and we needed more space/access. But the cracking I have, which I understand is quite common, is where two pieces of wood on the door faces meet. It is very small, but definitely there.

I think the maker of my cabinets is Acorn, but I don't recall (would have to look).

Are you sure your science lab counters were soapstone and not fireclay (or whatever that hard black material is called)? I think soapstone is beautiful, so you should do that if you don't mind any staining, etc. and like the way it looks with the color of your cabinets.

Posted by: Brooklyn Anon at August 1, 2007 10:48 AM

Not a big fan of islands, though they seem to be a must have these days, and will look so dated in time when they no longer in vogue.

Suggestions

1) no island, save some money and floor space

2) Sink by the window so a view while you work.

3) Big country kitchen table, more family friendly than an island with breakfast stools

Posted by: anon at August 1, 2007 11:18 AM

Thanks BrooklynAnon. Do you know what kind of soapstone you have?

Anon1118: Thanks for the suggestions. Its not entirely clear in my post but the windows are pretty big so there is no room for a counter/sink under them. We absolutely need the space the island will provide (the opposing wall is pretty small and doesnt leave us room for a dishwasher or any counterspace) but I have wanted an island for my entire adult life so Im willing to risk its going out of style.

Posted by: MrsLimestone at August 1, 2007 12:17 PM

I'll try to get some pics taken of our kitchen. Meanwhile, re. the pietra cardosa, like I said it's only enemy is oil -- which doesn't so much stain the stone as darken it. Never had a problem with red wine, lemon juice or anything else. And we're kinda messy cooks. Do you know the Simon Pearce glass/pottery/housewares store on lower Broadway? They used pietra cardosa for their counters if you want to check it out.

Sounds like you have loads of lighting planned. We took the bad advice of our designer and economized (throughout the house) on the number of light points but in the kitchen, luckily, it all worked out fine. The one thing I'm perversely proud of is that we have no cans in our house at all -- even though I admit they are practical. The pendants we used from Rejuvenation are the Newcastle in brushed nickel.

Posted by: NeoGrec at August 1, 2007 12:28 PM

Me again. One thing you might want to consider re painting the cabinets is using a really top quality oil-based paint like Fine Paints Of Europe. More expensive paint is a worthwhile investment and a relatively small extra cost compared to the labor part of any painting job. Oil based paint goes onto woodwork so much more smoothly and creates a finished surface that is more durable (much harder to chip), better looking and easier to clean.

Posted by: NeoGrec at August 1, 2007 12:33 PM

Thanks NeoGrec...I'd love to see photos. If you don't want to post them here you can email them to BkLimestoner@aol.com.

To clarify, there are no existing cabinets. The current rooms that are being joined to make this space are bedrooms. All of the cabinetry is being purchased new. So I won't be painting them myself.

In of itself, I don't like the look of cans. But I think a room needs lots of light to look finished and be functional. So they will be all over this kitchen and the entire house. Cans are a necessary evil to someone who likes a lot of light like I do. I post on the lighting issue at some point but Im going to try to find the least obnoxious cans I can for the recessed lighting. Im also adding decorative lighting like chandeliers, sconces and pendants whenever possible to take the focus away from the recessed lights. But thats about as good as it will get.

Posted by: Mrslimestone at August 1, 2007 1:05 PM

One of the great featured Brownstone kitchens on this site had almost no built in cabinets, just a collection of antique tables and cabinets and other pieces, I remember a suspended ladder was used as a pot rack.

I also remember most folks where swooning over this non built in kitchen, so refreshing to see something creative and antique.

This antique kitchen no doubt took time to collect the pieces, but was likely a lot cheaper overall.

I doubt your contractor would like the idea though.

Posted by: anon at August 1, 2007 2:40 PM

Consider MDF doors on the cabinets (maple or other quality hardwood bodies and shelves of course) and definitely the oil based paint/enamel finish. MDF will not suffer from the same expansion contraction issues that can lead to the hairline cracks mentioned in posts above. Only downside is if MDF is dinged really hard, it is not as easy to repair.

I much prefer painted cabinets in a white, or off-white (my personal preference). I think they are timeless and can be done in a variety of styles for either a contemporary or more vintage/traditional look.

Also, with the wide selection of granites, you might be able to find one that you like the look of and still get the benefit of the durability and stain resistance.

On the island, I'd consider, if you haven't already done so, having a higher ledge that shields the view of the since and dirty dishes from the living room.

Also, under cabinet lighting is key on the wall with wall cabinets.

I think your design is fantastic and really like the pot filler faucet over the range.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 2, 2007 10:51 AM

Hey Mrs. Limestone--

My kitchen is very similar to yours in style. We cook alot, and our painted cabinets were a little banged up, so we had them repainted with high-quality oil paint last year (after over five+ years of heavy use.) They look like new again.

FYI, if you use white oil paint to finish, bear in mind it's going to yellow on you within weeks--but I like the softer color. Many cabinet makers initially finish with lacquer, which doesn't yellow, and if applied right is quite durable.

We had the same countertop dilemma. We ended up using a slate that looks like soapstone but is harder; the quarry is called Sheldon Slate and they should be able to direct you to a local installer.

Our countertops have held up really well--little scratches fade away and we have no stains. There are a few dings but a visitor would be hard-pressed to find them. The slate (dark grey) is mottled with color,which can vary significantly by slab. You can pick the color though--ours is laced with a turquoise/celedon kind of green which I love. We have never sealed it or babied it in any way.

The counters themselves have a nice matte finish. We chose not to do honed granite because we were told you lose much of the durability of granite once you hone it.

We also have inset cabinets and I love the look. My only caveat is that you want really good craftsmanship. Ours is less than stellar, and the variations in the "reveals" around the cabinet doors bugs me. But that was my fault in picking the cabinetmaker!

Good luck--looks like a great kitchen. And you are right to put in as much light as possible.

Posted by: tinarina at August 2, 2007 11:41 AM

Thanks for the comments.

Tina - what cabinet company did you use? We are considering Plain & Fancy which seems to get good reviews but you never can be sure.

Anon240 - Do you know when that kitchen was posted? Its not the look for me but perhaps I could get some inspiration from the collected kitchen look.

Anon1051 - I believe the doors on the cabinets we're considering are solid maple rather than MDF. I could be wrong though. Not really a fan of the bar island thing. Yes, it hides a mess but it visually closes the space which I dont like. Plus it kills the benefit of having a nice large area of countertop by breaking it up. I know its a popular option now but all of the islands I like are one level.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at August 2, 2007 12:57 PM

I don't have that ledge on our peninsula (don't have an island, and sometimes wish I did so people in the dining room wouldn't see the cooking mess. However, I do like our 10 feet of open counter space that can be used as a sideboard when entertaining.

Posted by: Anon1051 at August 2, 2007 1:07 PM

2:40, I agree. That's always been my dream kitchen for my someday weekend farm or lakehouse. A kitchen that's a big room with all freestanding pieces. Mixture of antique cabinets and credenzas or sideboards. Big ole farm table in the middle. I love love those metal kitchen cabinets and sideboards from the 30's and 40's for kitchens. It's funny we don't see the freestanding pieces as much in brownstones, because I thought that had become the hallmark of a really chic kitchen recently. I have to say I think just like the bridal industry, the whole kitchen industry really promotes an all built-in kitchen. So when you buy home interior magazines and especially kitchen design magazines, the magazines need to cater to their advertisors, the kitchen industry. Meaning we are always being shown what the industry wants to sell us, not necessarily what are the most imaginative, fashionable and creative kitchen designs. Maybe simply googling lots of New York interior designer and architect websites and looking at their portfolios would be a good idea. Go to the creative minds behind the best designed homes in NYC, not to the industry, to get ideas for our kitchens.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 2, 2007 1:45 PM

Anon 1257--We used a local cabinet shop, Jo-Lyn, which I would not recommend. We went this route because we needed custom work and couldn't get what we wanted with semi-custom in our price range.

I think Plain & Fancy makes really nice cabinets...not cheap, but nicer than than many cabinets that are much more expensive.

Posted by: tinarina at August 3, 2007 12:35 PM

We have a similar layout from a renovation we did 5 years ago, and I'd like to share with you our one biggest regret - not reducing the full bathroom to a powder room thus expanding the kitchen by 3 feet. We have a full bathroom on the groundfloor of our duplex (where the bedrooms are as well). When we bought the house the bathroom on the parlor floor was in pretty good shape, and we couldn't stand the idea of removing it. But the sad truth is that in past 5 years the tub/shower has been used twice. Our guests would rather wait for an turn in the bathroom on the floor with the bedrooms rather than climb the stairs to use one on the floor with the kitchen/living space.

So the kitchen about 3 feet short of the drawer and cupboard space I now would really like - and by the way we don't cook that much these days. If I were in full swing of preparing complicated meals on a regular basis I probably would have taken a sledgehammer to the bathtub already.

Also, I think your layout means that you won't be able to have the oven and dishwasher open at the same time, which could be a drag.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 4, 2007 1:32 AM

Our kitchen designer said Plain & Fancy was generally 30% higher in cost than the Medallion semi-custom cabinets we got. Which was just too much for us so we went with Medallion and are really pleased so far.

I was looking through a back issue of House & Garden last night and saw a white kitchen that had handpainted cabinets. I don't think it's unheard of, because frankly the finish and look of white cabinets from many companies even the expensive ones, can look cheap. I wonder why? Plain & Fancy white cabinets look really nice though.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 4, 2007 8:15 AM

we designed and installed a kitchen very similar to the one you've proposed, farmhouse sink and all:

http://housebywe.com/renogallery.html
(project 1, second item)

the white and black is very elegant and bridges contemporary and traditional very gracefully. feel free to email us for more info or pics.

Posted by: housebywe at August 5, 2007 5:26 PM

that wall you are taking out IS load bearing.. I guess you know that and are putting up a beam and columns.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 9, 2007 5:33 PM

We did a similar kitchen in our house. Used Woodmode cabinets - solid maple (definitely no MDF - it has more reactions to moisture long term!) painted off-white.

We used Soapstone from Bucks County Soapstone. Thought the stone does chip (we are 15 months into this kitchen), it definitely does not stain and has absolutely no reaction to 500 degree pans coming from the oven, pots coming right from the stove, lemon juice, red wine (lots of red wine), oils, etc. Aside from the few dings (especially above the dishwasher), they are absolutely the same as the day they were installed (in a house with two children and too many guests). I still love them and get endless compliments (even from those who were not brave enough and did honed granite instead . . .)

Posted by: DTimberLD at August 13, 2007 12:55 AM