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July 30, 2008

HVAC

I’m kind of a infrastructure guy, in that I’d rather spend money on the bones than on the decorations. So when we looked at this house there was no question that we wanted a complete new heating and central air system.

HEATING
When we took possession, the heat was supplied by an old Weil-McLain boiler, making up steam and distributing it through the usual cast iron pipes and radiators. The hot water had been made up by a gas-fired water tank, but at some point it had failed and the previous owners elected to have the boiler make up the water directly rather than replace the tank. We managed to make it through the winter without any major failures, although with limited insulation and an inefficient boiler our heat bill was over $700 per month. Boiler at
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957520

The original plan was to do radiant heat. But with new floors, subfloors, and other complications, it seemed the cost was going to get out of control. We ended up going standard baseboard hydronic system with new mod-con boiler and indirect water tank.

I called a company who I know and trust, Pulse Combustion in Hicksville NY (Chuck Milan, 516-997-9681, tell him who sent you). When I was in a PS co-op, they were the only company that was able to straighten out a very messed up boiler system. I know some of the mechanics and they’re top-notch; in fact one was a steamfitter in the WTC for ten years.

Pulse recommended a TurboMax indirect water heater and a Lochinvar Knight mod-con boiler, both state of the art efficient.

We started by pulling out the old non-working water heater and he hooked up a temporary gas water heater so we could have hot water while they installed the permanent equipment (we started the installation in the spring to no heat was needed). See at left
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957521

We’re dividing the house into five zones; one for hot water, one for the first floor, one for all of the second floor except the guest bedroom, one for the guest bedroom, and one for the basement at some future time when we have the money to think about finishing it.
In the middle of the job, it looks like this:
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957522

The boiler and tank has been working fine for the last couple of months in providing hot water. It’s not yet hooked up to the rads as we are still working on the interiors.
So, for now, here it is (same image as above):
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957524

The eagle eyed may note a difference in the PVC venting in those above two photos. Neighbors, neighbors. Although the boiler was legally vented to the side of the (semi-detached) house, my next door neighbor bitterly complained that fumes from the boiler were interfering with his quality of life. Not wanting to start off on the wrong foot, I ended up spending an additional $1500 to run the vent up the chimney. During the process though, may neighbor felt I wasn’t doing it fast enough and called KeySpan to complain about my ‘illegal’ installation. KeySpan gave the installation its blessing, to his chagrin. But it was all taken care of. See
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957519

Ah yes, money. About $38,000 including the new vent.

COOLING
A couple of my other ‘friends’ were going to take care of the central air for me. But they didn’t. So I ended up with the GC’s guy. Don’t know the name of their company, they were a couple of Lithuanian guys. The bid was 17k, which I thought was quite reasonable.

We opted, for efficiency and redundancy, to use two compressors and two air handlers, one each for each floor. Yesterday I posted a photo of some of the ducting on the second floor; here it is again.
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100849964

The original plan was to put the compressors in the back yard. Then the neighbor factor happened again. He was unhappy about what he thought would be excessive noise, and wanted me to put them on the roof (where his is). After scratching my head, and noting that the compressors would really take up a lot of room in the yard, I bit the bullet. Unfortunately, this one hurt at an additional 5k to install the dunnage (steel beams), and to undo and redo the lines that had already been installed. Here are a couple of shots of the work in progress.
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957523

http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957525

Here I wouldn’t mind hearing from some other brownstoners with similar experience: Did you attach the compressors to the dunnage, or just let them sit there? The contractors insisted to me that it was safe and that they would not blow over in a windstorm. I think otherwise. I ended up handling it myself by using some steel strapping and rubber scraps. See
http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/image/100957518

Anyway, we got the AC up and running in the upstairs almost in time for summer. So life is good.

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Comments

Sounds like you have an expensive neighbor :)

Posted by: Park Place at July 30, 2008 3:33 PM

denton:

What type of A/C equipment did you use? Carrier? Trane? Other?

Any details on type of air handler? Variable speed? On/off?

We're about to start the same project. Thanks!

Posted by: Mr Joist at July 30, 2008 4:41 PM

Hey Mr. Joist:

All equipment is Goodman, I think at least some of it is made in the USA. See www.goodmanmfg.com.

Air handlers are ARUF variable speed units, 1/2 hp, 3 amp, 220V.

Posted by: denton at July 30, 2008 5:37 PM

nice, thorough job covering your HVAC renos, much appreciated. on the neighbor; I reckon he's got a point on the compressors and venting, with the former being really loud. But for some reason i think the neighbor needs a kick in the pants.

i would most definitely attach the compressors to the steel beams, just to be safe. denton- you're a belt-and-suspenders type, right? Bolt those compressors down as well.

Posted by: Fjorder at July 31, 2008 3:55 PM

our compressors (3 - 2 small, one big) are resting on the dunnage on the roof. However, we will probably install lateral support struts underneath, from beam to beam along the side of each compressor, as there is less than an inch of actual contact between the compressors and the beams (beams were set juuuuuust too far apart from each other...)

Posted by: epkwy at July 31, 2008 4:40 PM

Denton, the boiler exhaust is in the downturned position on the roof. Lochinvar, the manufacturer, specifically states not to do that.
Have your installers take a look at that.
Also, as they are based in Long Island, they may not be aware of the new codes requiring a swing check valve for potable water supply protection downstream of the backflow preventor.
I don't see one in the picture.

I really like that boiler. Lochinvar is coming on strong in the mod/con category and indirect water heaters are so the way to go.

Kudos to you for following through and not being scared off by the initial costs.

Posted by: Master Plvmber at July 31, 2008 4:41 PM

Kick in the pants? Please - why is a neighbor who is suddenly dealing with fumes in need of a kick in the pants? I know there's this all-liberty-to-me-and-f**k everybody-else attitude out there, but people, we do live in a city in close proximity to others. I wonder sometimes what the world is coming to...

Posted by: guest at July 31, 2008 11:53 PM

I just had to comment that you are a really considerate host to have a special heating zone just for your guest room!

While Im sure your neighbor is on your last nerve, I think he has a point about the noise. They do make a lot of noise so by putting them on your roof you've made your own quality of life better anyway (and saved backyard space)

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at August 1, 2008 8:40 AM

A gray type comment? I thought we rid ourselves of those rascals.

Posted by: Fjorder at August 1, 2008 12:49 PM

Curious as to btu capacity of units. And EER.

Posted by: cmu at August 1, 2008 2:00 PM

I'm confused

Does your neighbor own your house or do you own your house?

Posted by: MrHancock at August 2, 2008 8:02 AM

Thanks for sharing your expertise, MP. I'll look into those two points.

Mrs. L, the point of the separate zone for the guest BR is not to let the guest control his own heat (altho of course they can) but to keep the temp as low as possible (thereby saving gas) when the room is vacant! As we figure it will be vacant more often than not, seemed like the right thing to do.

cmu, the boiler is 150k BTU and is somewhere around 95% efficient. See that lil' Energy Star sticker!

Thanks all for the neighbor comments. It's a tough decision all around. On the exhaust issue, the stuff that comes out is mostly water vapor, it's not really 'fumes'. otoh it didn't cost much to do what he wanted. On the compressor issue, it did cost alot, but there were some valid reasons to move them, including the space I was gonna lose in the garden. I guess everyone has to weigh what neighbor peace is worth and make their own decisions.

Posted by: denton at August 5, 2008 7:29 AM

Thanks, was actually wondering about the a/cs...if you're still checking this, do you mind posting the btu/eer or at least the btu? Because some time I might want to do a/c and want a reality check. tx.

Posted by: cmu at August 7, 2008 6:56 PM

I have an old mclain boiler as well. Its in a 6 family brownstone. how much can I expect to save by switching over to the Lochinvar?

Posted by: landlord at August 11, 2008 12:34 PM

Hi cmu:

The compressor model is a 3 ton Goodman GSC130361. That makes it a 3 ton 36,000 BTU unit. The eer is only 13, they make more efficient models. For detailed specs see
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/SS-GSC13.pdf

landlord, is your boiler steam or hw? Mine was steam, so the whole system including rads was replaced. I have no idea but I bet if you contacted lochinvar they could help. As you know so much would depend on windows, insulation, etc.

Posted by: denton at August 12, 2008 5:48 PM