People kill me, anyplace you'd have put your money over the last year cept' for a few commodities (provided you're still long) would have you underwater by now....

Dow - down
Nasdaq - down
Yankees - down
Knicks - ....

There's a natural ebb and flow to everything, why not real estate?

Posted by: moreteasir at January 18, 2008 2:20 PM in response to Open House Picks

I haven't met a homeowner yet who's purchased a house north of 1mm who's spent 400 a month to maintain said house....that 400 better include heat.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 22, 2008 1:38 PM in response to Condo of the Day: 409 3rd Street

Thanks Guest 2:00

...I've noticed that the new condo trend for non gut-rehab brownstones has been to either have separate heat/hot water meters or to split the bill between the units minus common area usage. If what you say applies to the property listed, it indeed is a good deal....let's hope so.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 22, 2008 2:13 PM in response to Condo of the Day: 409 3rd Street

2:35 is right...I tell people my house is 3,400 sq. feet. It's really 3,372 not including lawn.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 22, 2008 2:39 PM in response to Condo of the Day: 409 3rd Street

Give out free crack....the 'heads' next door will protect your house with their life.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 22, 2008 3:23 PM in response to Alarm system

what's over is that ugly brown awning over the garden level entrance.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 23, 2008 3:37 PM in response to House of the Day: 466 5th Street

Spectacular. Maybe the egregious English error is a nod to the buildings glorious past?

Posted by: moreteasir at January 24, 2008 1:52 PM in response to 110 Livingston Rental Ads Go Underground

...I guess reading comprehension didn't take well either...

Posted by: moreteasir at January 24, 2008 3:28 PM in response to stain maple floor

With mortgages up to 725k having the potential of being conventional, maybe if the owner refinanced the new mortgage would be low enough to match the rents.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 25, 2008 11:04 AM in response to Foreclosure Pressure at 14 Fort Greene Place?

...yeah Mr. B, why did you make this guy purchase a brownstone that he couldn't afford and then report on the default...shame on you.

Posted by: moreteasir at January 25, 2008 11:27 AM in response to Foreclosure Pressure at 14 Fort Greene Place?

Well it's good you love the place and want to stay there forever because you'll never be able to sell it. Not with financials so bad the building won't even show them to buyers. It's not laziness. That's naive to think that.

Posted by: guest at May 10, 2008 3:57 PM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

I'm in contract at a small self-managed co-op in PH. Here's my advice: It seems that your co-op is basically dead-even. 10k in reserve, 10k in debt. It's taking in good money in monthlies (according to your estimated payments x 5), and the base value for the building is likely high (I'm assuming a PS Brownstone here).

That said, you are in the perfect position to close on you apt, get on the board, and make sure things run more smoothly moving forward. It's not like the building is going to go bankrupt or anything.. it's dead even. Start taking those meeting minutes, make smart decisions, push for modest upgrades, and in 2 years any potential buyer will think this is a greatly run building.

Plus, it sounds like you really love the place. The good thing about a small co-op is that you have so much more power to implement change. So, do it. :)

Posted by: guest at May 10, 2008 11:16 PM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

3:34 no one ever said the place was cheap, it is going for above market rate, one of the reasons i am asking all the questions, obviously I have my doubts, and my head and heart are in two different places right now.
If the place were cheap, I would be happy to try to jump on the board and get things started moving in the right direction, but with a couple original owners still there (President and Treasurer)it might be hard to get that vote through as the newbie.
anyway thanks for everyones advice, we have lowered our offer to the price we believe it is worth based on the info given.
off to the races again today for open houses, always something better around the corner right?

Posted by: steve37 at May 11, 2008 10:22 AM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

I used to be treasurer of an 8-unit coop building in Park Slope, so I understand your concerns. However, what you'll find with small co-ops is that not much is really done by the book unless you've got at least one person (usually the treasurer) with a financial/legal background who is on top of things and wants to run a tight ship. Most of the time, things like minutes are a joke and financial statements get filed very late (not on my watch of course). Also, as far as planning capital improvements, most buildings simply don't plan ahead too far or have a capital budget: When something breaks they fix it, if there is no money in the reserve, they borrow it, if they can't borrow (i.e. refinance or line of credit), then a big assessment is due.

I know it seems like a really haphazard way of doing things, but that's how most small co-ops are run. They are run very very casually by people who are not professionals at it. I'm a finance guy, so when I got in there, I cleaned things up, raised maintenance, and started beefing up the reserve fund. But, some people don't want to see a lot funds tied up in the reserve and want things run more "organically," so I got some resistance.

Different buildings will have different approaches. The thing to keep in mind is that you are not just buying an apartment, you are going into a long-term, inter-dependent business arrangement with a group of people you've never met before. And those 4 owners will change over time, as people sell, move out, and new buyers come in. It is not a stable population (though you have some control once you're in).

By the way, losses are typical on a co-op financial statement. What you need to do is add back any non-cash depreciation and amortization expenses to net income to get at a true representation of cash flow. They should be at least break-even on cash flow. I suggest you show the financials to an accountant or somebody who is used to reading statements (which from the comments above sounds like not a lot of posters on bstoner). Also, have the owner put you in direct contact with the building's treasurer and get a copy of their 2008 budget and capital plan if they have one. This will give you a pretty good feel for the cash flow, maintenance, and potential for future assessments. The more you have contact with people in the building, the better you will get a feel for how things work.

Good luck with your purchase. Do your home work and you should be fine.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 8:35 AM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

FYI, to add to the above, my 8-unit building usually had less than $10K in reserve. I would have liked more, and raised maintenance to improve our fund, but my point is that we got by fine. We'd already done most of the major projects, with the only remaining issue being that our boiler was +30 years old. It was working fine, but could go at any moment (though its now pushing 40). A new boiler would be around $10K if I recall correctly, but we figured out that there were ways to finance a new one, especially if we converted to gas.

Anyhow, my point is that for a 5-unit building with no immediate capital improvements required, $10K sounds like plenty. Again, you must take a look at the 2008 budget to truly understand the financial situation.

And please be careful about listening to advice on this board. Verify everything you read with a professional. From what I can tell, there are more than a few trolls that enjoy screwing with people like you and posting advice on matters they know absolutely nothing about.

- anon @8:35am

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 8:53 AM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

i agree with the poster above. the financial situation doesn't sound all that bad. if you really love the place you should ask to be treasurer and turn that ship around. most coops offer up the job because no one wants to handle the responsibility. i had a similar situation when i bought into a 5 unit brownstone in ps a couple years. we had a little more in the reserve, but had been losing between 6 and 9K over the past three years. they also weren't keeping good records. i don't think minutes have been kept since the late 80's and we still don't keep them. it's family style i guess. when a building operates like this just check to see what capital improvements they've made over the past 10+ years and be careful of the units with a high turnover rate. those folks usually aren't too keen on raising maintenance or spending money on improvements. any way, since i moved in i've become treasurer and raised maintenance so that we're just about breaking even now. in the next year or so i'll raise it a bit more so that we actually start saving. i set aside a certain amount for repairs for the year and if we go above and beyond there's an assessment. keep in mind that these buildings are old and there is always going to be something in need of repair. be prepared to go above and beyond your regular maintenance from time to time until you get comfortable. a good place to start would be with the boiler, which will run you roughly 10K. that's only 2k split up between the 5 units. not bad if you ask me. good luck!

Posted by: charlie bucket at May 12, 2008 11:50 AM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

Charlie and Anon,
Thanks for the words of advice, I did not take to heart the people who said run without much info, I did however get the info I was finally looking for, and turns out the reserve was $200 , so another lie again, we lowered our bid to what we thought was fair for such a mismanaged place, they rejected, so we are looking some more.
This co-op thing is tough being a home and a business at the same time.
anyway i took all the questions people gave and got the answers I wanted(well didn't actually want to find out what i did).

will be back next time should I have more questions.
thanks again for everyones advice, even the trolls(whatever that means).

Posted by: steve37 at May 13, 2008 12:58 PM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op

Steve,

Sorry to hear that one fell through. If it helps you feel any better, I can tell you that we had numerous false starts and probably looked at over 100 apts before buying a co-op. Each failed attempt led to a greater understanding of the process, so that once the stars really did align and we saw the perfect deal, we knew what we were doing and could move on it very quickly.

The co-op thing is tough, especially small co-ops. Much more complex IMO than buying a brownstone (I should know because we bought a bstone a few years after the co-op). Which should tell you that living in a co-op can also be complex, especially the politics of getting along with others and getting things done. Some people like it, some don't. Either way, its a way to started with owning something in NYC. If we'd never bought our PS co-op, it would have been much harder to subsequently afford our PS bstone.

Good luck with your search.

- anon @8:35

P.S. A troll is a malicious poster who posts for the sole purpose of either getting a rise out others, starting controversy, and/or deliberately spreading misinformation.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 3:10 PM in response to Advise Needed - Co-Op