mightierthanswords's Profile

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November 4, 2009

Sublet/Share Legal Issue

I have a question about the apartment I live in in Brooklyn. The facts: first of all, technically (according to the lease) it is an "artist's loft" and is NOT rent-controlled or rent-stabilized, so those laws do not apply. Second, there are 5 of us that live here, yet only one of our names is on the lease (i'll call him John). john has lived here the longest and he signed a 2 year lease first in 2006, and renewed it last year. third, technically it is a "share" not a "sublet" since he has lived here with the 4 of us for most of the time. so every month he writes the check to the LL and we write checks to him. we recently found out that he is gouging us quite badly. john misrepresented the total rent on the loft to us, so while he writes a check for $3000 to the LL every month, he collects about $2900 from us. he's not making a profit from us, but he is only paying $100 rent/month while the other 4 of us pay about $700. also, about 6 months ago he quit his job in brooklyn and "moved" to miami to be with his girlfriend. he left all of his furniture here, and just took personal things and clothes. so since then, he has "subletted" (since now he is gone) out his room to another roommate--and charges him $800/month. so now john still writes the check to the LL for $3000/month but the 5 of us write checks to him that total $3600 (4 of us @ $700/mo and the new subletter at $800/mo. so he is making a profit now. john has only come back once since he's been gone--for 2 weeks, and will not tell us when he plans on coming back again, or for how long. he's obviously doing this to perpetuate the great deal he has. my question is--do we, as "roommates" or sub-tenants have any rights to pay less/receive damages? again it is technically an "artist's loft" not an "apartment" so i believe different rules apply, and also it is not rent stabilized or rent controlled. also, because john is the only one who signed a lease, he's in privity with the LL, and when i asked the LL for a copy of the lease, he didn't reply to me and instead went directly to john and told him someone was asking to see the lease. john never let me see the lease (but i sneaked and looked at it quickly one day) and that's how i figured out the rent was way lower.

is there anything i can do?

Author's Comments

he made us pay "1 month rent + $500" as a security deposit. so he has actually $4800 of our money if you want me to be specific.

last year he said i could have a copy of the lease if i wanted, and so i said ok i would like one. then anytime i'd ask him to pony it up, he would say he didn't know where it was. (we have a lot of shelves/common space in our loft and much of it is cluttered with his shit, so he would just motion toward the shared office area and say "it's in there somewhere".) i finally just rifled through some of the shelves one day, and found it in an envelope marked "lease."

the day that i saw the rent check, he had left it on the kitchen table and ran out to get stamps or something (to mail it to the LL). since we all have office jobs, and he quit his (since he has like no expenses) i assume he didn't realize i was home sick that day and that i saw it when i woke up.

this has become insane. i was just wondering if we had recourse to take over the lease since he pretty much moved out so long ago. guess not. thanks to those of you who are understanding of how stressful it is to live with a greedy sociopath.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 3:49 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

we did try and confront him civilly about the rent, multiple times, and he just kept denying it and saying we were wrong. so yeah finally i looked at the lease (which was on a shelf in the common area) to confirm that i knew what the amount was (initially he had left his rent check out before sending to the LL and i was like, that can NOT be the whole amount!? but it was...) also when he renewed the lease in 2008 he passed on the increased rent and security deposit to us rather than take any additional on himself.

also, we all give him our bill checks on time, but he rarely pays them on time. several months ago we got a 4th and final notice our power would be shut off. i dont care about ruining credit since it's in his name, but we need power, and he's in miami so doesn't really care. i've been taking care of them since that happened, and it's really not a pain to ask people for the con ed bill every month.

just an additional note: when he was here for that 2 week period, he invited a couple of friends over for frozen margaritas. 2 hours before they were supposed to come, he sent out an email to them (and to us) saying he had purchased chips, dip, and frozen mix but someone else needed to bring the tequila as he had spent enough already.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 2:16 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

didn't realize he was so cheap and a sociopath...true colors took a while to come out and i gave him the benefit of the doubt. i'm leaning toward, when we move, just not paying the last month-2 of rent. if he's still in miami (probably) then it would be a pain for him to try and change the locks or evict us. and by that time we would be moving out.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 1:35 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

i have a feeling *rob* might be "john"...

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:30 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

tybur: i thought about that but considering the LL wouldn't even respond to me when i asked him for a copy of the lease, and instead went right to john to tell him someone was snooping around, i know if i were to approach him in that way, he'd ask john if he had left and john would flip out again, say no, resign the lease, and then kick me out.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:24 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

the main reason that we don't all pack up and leave is that he has $5000 in security deposit money from us that i know he will try and find any way not to return.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:20 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

rob: my monthly student loan payments exceed my rent, and i also help out my disabled fixed-income mom.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:07 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

so yeah, maybe my real question was just lost in that sea of words in my comments, but: if john left our apartment to go to miami indefinitely, is there a way we can approach the LL to take over the lease? also, i hope next year the IRS comes after john for failing to declare the profit he's making as an income from us and his subletter over this past year.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:03 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

thanks to those of you who gave good advice. i think i/we are just screwed though since out building is not rent stabilized (oh and yes there is a cert. of occupancy even though it is specified as an "artist's loft" in the lease). it's sad because we were all friends, but ever since we realized john lied to us and screwed us out of a lot of money over the years we've mostly written him off. this really isn't a case of jealousy either--when i discovered the rent situation, i told the other roommates about it and suggested that we split up our aggregate total evenly between the 4 of us so that at least we would be equitable amongst ourselves--and i had been paying the least amount of anyone since my room was the smallest, but i felt so bad for one roommate who makes very little money (i make $80k so it wasn't a big deal to me) that john was charging him the most rent, and everyone agreed that equal rent would be the best and at least keep harmony between us. also john is one of the cheapest people i've ever met, so i should have seen this coming. he bought a $10 set of 6 water glasses from target and then emailed all of us asking to add $2 to our rent checks to cover the expense, and he makes us pay for renter's insurance when i know the policy is only in his name and would only cover his belongings if something should happen. i brought that up to him once and he threw a fit and said that the policy covers all of the belongings in the apartment. (which is not true--in an apartment where i used to live, we were robbed and i had a renter's insurance policy but my roommate didn't, her stuff was not reimbursed for just because we shared the apartment. only the stuff i had enumerated and had pictures of and receipts for were.) i know it's easier to just move, but the 4 of us like living together a lot and there's been no tension since john has been in miami. we just worry because he never tells us when he is coming back. oh and the time he came back for 2 weeks he didn't pay any rent--just crashed on the couch and ate our food/used my shampoo/laundry detergent and complained how someone needed to clean the bathroom. i think when/if he comes back for good we will move out, but i was just wondering if there was a way to show he abandoned the lease since he's gone indefinitely, and take it over (which it should be noted, is what he did to the previous leaseholder of this apartment when she moved with her boyfriend to Texas). John is a borderline sociopath too, but that's for another conversation.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 11:51 AM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

Responses to Author's Forum Comments

" so yeah finally i looked at the lease (which was on a shelf in the common area) to confirm that i knew what the amount was (initially he had left his rent check out before sending to the LL and i was like, that can NOT be the whole amount!? but it was...)"

This story keeps changing. If John was trying to conceal that he was profiting from your rent, why oh why would he leave the lease on a shelf in a common area and leave his rent check out??? [Buzzer sounds] Next contestant, please!

Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 2:49 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

carroll go back and read the posts. he denied overcharging the rent. he probably just got a little lazy.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 3:09 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

it doesnt matter he OVERcharged. it was agreed to that youd pay 700 dollars a month, doesnt MATTER that he was paying less. at ALL. and maly your scenario is completely ridiculous and doesnt relate to this issue at all.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 3:11 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

if the 4 of you are paying $2800/month to him, why does he have $5000 in security deposit? did he make you all pay more than 1 month's security?

Posted by: CG_ups at November 4, 2009 3:25 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

*rob* sounds like you would do the same to your friends?

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 3:30 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

That was my guess, CG_ups. First and last month's, plus $400 for something.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 3:30 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

$400 is for chips and margarita mix, but, sadly, not the tequila.

Posted by: antidope at November 4, 2009 3:35 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

he made us pay "1 month rent + $500" as a security deposit. so he has actually $4800 of our money if you want me to be specific.

Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 3:49 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

main reason that we don't all pack up and leave is that he has $5000 in security deposit money from us that i know he will try and find any way not to return.

You were never getting that money back from John. You think a guy who's done this to you won't find some pretext to keep more of your money?

If I've got this right, when you moved in he told you the rent was $3500 per month and it would be split equally? Or he told you you paid 1/5 of the rent, which was $700 (same difference).

Well, then, since the rent was only $3000, that means you were overpaying your agreed-upon share by $175 per month before the new roommate moved in. And since the new roommate moved in, you've been overpaying by $200.

So, stop paying him.

I'd tell him that since there is a new roommate, you will be paying 1/6 of the $3,000 rent from this point forward ($500 a month), and that he should take the first however many months out of your security deposit, and the next however many months out of your overpayments to date. If he comes back at you, don't negotiate, don't explain, don't discuss, this is just how it is. Give him a lot of "I'm so sorry you feel that way. I felt pretty terrible when I found out I'd been overpaying for so many months." And then just say nothing.

He mis-represented the terms of a contract that is probably unenforceable anyway. It doesn't matter how you found out he was lying. Blah blah blah, don't get sucked into his drama. Just, these are your terms. And if he gets all "and if I don't accept your terms," just say "I'm sorry." And hang up. It's not your job to solve his problem of not liking the fact you'll be paying him less, and only start paying him again after your overpayments/security have brought you back to an even balance.

Tell your roommates you are doing this, as an FYI. If they want to do it, too, be supportive of them. But do this with or without them. But be clear that this is between you and John, it's John's name on the lease, it's HIS problem (not theirs) to find the money to pay.

He will undoubtedly try to get you out of there. But odds are, he would have tried to get you out of there anyway since you're the pesky troublemaker who exposed his scam.

Remove all your valuables from the apartment NOW. Put some clothes at a friend's house where you could crash for awhile if he changes the locks. Make sure none of the utilities, etc are in your name. Have a plan for what to do if you come home to find the locks changed. Get all illegal substances out of your place (pot, whatever) in case he calls the cops. Change the password of all your accounts to something that's hard to hack.

And start looking for a new place. If this works out and he doesn't give you a hard time, once you've lived there long enough that all the overpayments are even, ask yourself if you want to live in this place for $500 a month, given the trust situation with John. If the answer is no, start looking for a new place.

But under no circumstances does John get any more of your money until the balance comes even.

Posted by: bkrules at November 4, 2009 3:50 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue

I think the issue is black and white. You all agreed to pay what he was asking. It doesn't matter what he is/was paying.

If I felt an item is worth $100 and I buy it for $100, do I have the right to to get my money back if I found out someone else bought it for $20? No.

I still agree that "John" is a douche... AND he is the one who has his credit at risk here. If you want to stick it to him, you have the option.

Posted by: mrkknox at November 4, 2009 3:55 PM in response to Sublet/Share Legal Issue