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March 19, 2008
Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
We are selling our apt but now are having title problems with the house we are planning to buy - so the house could fall through, but we're probably going to go through with apt sale anyway.
Question is: is there a time limit within which we have to invest capital gains into another primary residence? That is, if we don't buy a house within 1 year, will be charged tax? Our accountant said this rule no longer exists, so we have no time limit - but I just wanted to double-check.
Also, is the maximum deduction of profit (before capital gains tax kicks in) $500K for a couple?
March 15, 2008
French drain to waterproof cellar - how successful?
Anyone out there have success installing a French drain system? This came up in an earlier post I did about waterproofing a basement in a house we are buying but I'd love to hear from others who've actually used one. On my last visit to the house, the cellar was actually covered in 3 inches of water from recent rains, and the broker swore a French drain was the answer. Would love to hear more about these - how likely they are to succeed, rough cost estimates (footprint of this house is 16.5 x 40), good vendors to use, etc.
Advice greatly appreciated - thanks!
March 14, 2008
Do brownstones usually need renovation?
We are on the verge of buying a small (16.5 x 40) brownstone in a prime location. Purchase price is pretty low relative to comps but when you factor in the work we need to do (lowest estimates have come in at 400K total) it winds up being much closer to comps, and indeed on the expensive side (esp in this uncertain market). However, we wonder if any brownstone we buy would need work anyway, so in that sense, maybe this is a good deal.
Inspector, contractor and architects I've spoken to all tell me that almost all brownstones (unless gut renovated within last 15-20 years) need upgrades to mechanicals, and of course, it's hard to find a place that's exactly right as is (in terms of configuration, kitchens/baths, etc.). But I'm curious if most people familiar with the brownstone market can answer whether indeed most brownstones would need work anyway, or are many of them basically in move-in condition?
March 1, 2008
Renovation team - what's most cost-effective without sacrificing quality?
We are considering purchasing a small brownstone which needs extensive renovation and wonder how to assemble the best team for the work given our tight budget. We have already brought 2 architects, a designer, and a contractor to the house, plus have talked to several others. So far, all the bids are in the range of 350-500K which is of course a large range but it seems to depend on the kind of team we use and finishes we select. While economizing with finishes seems straightforward, saving on our renovation team is more confusing. The most expensive way to go is to have the architect project manage the whole thing plus work with us to select all the finishes - this evidently will add at least 16-18% to construction costs (or $70K on 400K of construction costs). Another way to go is to have the architect do drawings only to file with DOB, then trust the contractor to execute everything. Problem is, both my husband and I have demanding jobs and small kids and are worried about our ability to really supervise the GC. A designer we worked with on a smaller job has offered to project manage for us, as well as help us select finishes - but this could add up to a lot of fees too - perhaps as much as 30K if not more. For budget reasons, I'm tempted to just trust the GC but also don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, since I saw how great the designer was when we did the small job for us - she saved us money by finding great, economical choices, negotiating discounts on products, catching GC errors, etc. - plus she definitely increased value of our apt. If we were handier or less busy, we would be better equipped to supervise GC. So one question is: are there GC's out there who are really great and will advocate for you (as opposed to their workers, and cut corners on your job)? If so, I'd love their names! Or, do people think it's foolish NOT to have an architect and/or designer supervise the job? If we do go with the designer, our other worry is that, even though her hourly rate is significantly less than an architect, she does not have as much experience as an architect so I'm not sure she'll be as efficient. But others tell me that renovating these small brownstones is pretty straightforward and a fancy architect is overkill. Any advice greatly appreciated...
February 20, 2008
house cost per square foot?
We are looking into buying a small (16.5 x 40, 3 story) brownstone in prime PS - near park, great school, etc. The purchase price is pretty low but once we factor in renovation, it might wind up being close to 1.7-1.8, or about $850-900 per square foot. Does this seem expensive for a house renovated to our taste? Note that, from the renovation quotes I've gotten, we can't afford to do a fancy renovation, nor do we want to, so it will probably be simple clean finishes with not a lot of detail (leaning more towards contemporary than traditional). Looking at comps is confusing - it seems that the bigger houses wind up costing a bit less psf but the smaller ones do seem pricier psf. The fact is, we can't afford one of the bigger houses that cost 2-3 million so 1.7-1.8 is the best we can do. But is it crazy to spend this much per square foot? I know the market is supposed to be softening, but based on the incredible demand for our 3BR/2BA prewar apt, it seems that the demand for prime properties is still as strong as ever...
February 17, 2008
cost to gut reno 16.5 x 40 brownstone?
Does $500-600K sound high, low, or realistic to gut renovate a 16.5 x 40 3 story brownstone, including all professional fees (i.e. if we use an architect)? We originally thought work was mainly cosmetic but following inspection, it really does seem to be a gut reno. Currently used as 2 family (lower duplex with garden kitchen, and top floor rental) that's kind of chopped up, we want to take over whole house. We thought we wanted kitchen moved to parlor but are open to keeping on garden if that's more economical, and if the garden can be made to feel like less of the dungeon it currently feels like. We do NOT want central AC, and in general are not "fancy" types - we like simple, clean, contemporary but not super high end (i.e. we're fine making compromises like Ikea kitchen cabinets). Also, there's little to no detail to preserve.
Thoughts?
February 16, 2008
basement flood/waterproofing?
We are considering buying a modest brownstone in prime Bklyn, and need the cellar to increase total sf (house is small) but the cellar shows signs of past flooding (sump pump, mold on sheetrock walls, etc.) The inspector found the walls to be dry now, but there was a lot of water in the sump pump. One theory he had was that the sump pump is basically working, and past mold is from previous floods. Also, problem might arise from fact that current owner dug out half the cellar (where sump pump is). That is, back half of cellar is about 2-3' deeper than front half, and maybe the house hit ground water.
My question: what are the odds that this basement can be waterproofed to eventually be a usable basement? We would love to dig up foundation to raise ceiling height, and make room into usable family room type place (I've seen others do this) but is there any way to know before signing contract if this is possible - that is, how can we figure out ahead of time if this basement will be usable and not prone to problematic and/or chronic flooding? Our inspector said it really is a matter of water "management" but how easy/difficult it is to manage the water so that flooding does not occur?
February 15, 2008
"fair" condition from house inspection
We are considering buying a small brownstone in prime Blyn brownstone but are a bit scared by the inspection report, which listed the house as being only in "fair" condition with lots of potential problems i.e. some asbestos on basement pipes, badly done roor, loose cornice, some foundation erosion, etc. Do these problems sound typical? Or is a "fair" condition house (as opposed to "fairly good" or "good") more the norm? The house is priced OK for this market, but of course is still a ton of money so we want to be sure it's a good investment...
February 14, 2008
16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
We're considering buying a brownstone in prime brownstone Brooklyn but it's only 16.5 x 40 (3 stories, 2 family) and we're trying to figure out if it's worth it in terms of being a real improvement in space from our current living situation. Can these be laid out to feel spacious? Current house owner lives in lower duplex (kitchen on garden, bedrooms on parlor) with top floor rental, but we'd have to reconfigure since the house is really badly done, and we much prefer parlor level kitchen and bedrooms on top floor. But, we're worried that the expense of the house including renovation may not be worth it for the final space we get.
We now own a 3BR/2BA prewar apt (w/outdoor space/storage/W/D and lots of sun) that is about 1200 sf and really efficiently laid out, with decent sized bedrooms. Our main complaint is that the common space feels smaller than we'd like, and ideally, we'd like another room. Problem is, the brownstone is not a clear improvement. For one thing, the bedrooms on top floor will likely be smaller (can't really get 3 bedrooms, right? only 2.5, with the half bedroom a small study) and not clear if there will be as much storage space. The parlor level would probably only feel more spacious if we knocked down all the walls, but would this look weird?
We probably can't afford to do anything with garden floor for now so will either rent it or use it kind of as is (perhaps just rip out kitchen and paint, put down inexpensive floors), but in the future, we'd want a bedroom down there.
Any tips on how to lay out this size brownstone, and whether it can really feel spacious?
Thanks!
February 13, 2008
Contractor price per square foot?
We are considering buying a modest brownstone - 16.5 x 40', 3 stories (currently used as 2 family with top floor rental). What is a "safe" cost per sq ft to budget for renovation? It seems to be all over the map - I've been quoted 200/psf up to 500/psf. We are not "fancy" types - we have a tight budget and like a simple, clean look (a la Dwell magazine) and are not dealing with restoring tons of old detail, since the house does not have much. So far, a couple of architects have said we could squeak by and renovate 2 floors for 200-250K, but I have trouble meshing that to contractor prices I've been given.
Re: work we want to do - The house is in decent shape but we do want to do pretty major work including: flipping configuration so that we could first live on upper duplex (and hopefully eventually afford to take over garden) though this means putting kitchen on parlor; nearly gutting parlor floor (taking down a bunch of walls, creating kitchen & possibly a powder room and closet); top floor some reconfiguration but not as extreme - mainly ripping out kitchen to make bedroom larger (currently that room is a LR) and possibly add closet space, renovate bath and add add'l closet space, and maybe change door entry point to small study in front half of room (currently opens from adjacent BR, we want it to open from hall).
We are about to go to contract but are dying to get more of a sense of the true cost of renovation - can it done be rather thriftily? To me, 200-250K seems like a hell of a lot of money!
Thanks -
Author's Comments
Sushi, welcome to the Brownstoner trolls - the lame and outright mean comments on here are a mystery to me, but it's best to just ignore them than engage.
Anyway, we gutted a half bath and turned into a 4 x 5 full bath for about 11K. We have another full bath (about 6 x 8) that would have probably been $20K min to gut and redo. But what you're talking about sounds more surgical, not a complete gut. You could probably create a budget just be looking online at fixtures/tile you like - and of course, it depends on how end you want to go. Tile starts cheap ($3/4 psf all the way up to $30+) and sinks vary hugely.
The architects and design building has tons of showrooms where you can get a sense of different options:
I have lots of other links if you want them but won't clog up this post if you already know of places (i.e. tile and fixture sources).
Posted by: housesearcher at April 2, 2008 11:24 PM in response to About how much to renovate small BATH & KITCHEN???
I agree that you want a thorough, but not alarmist inspector. For those who say they want an alarmist inspector, the downside to this is that such an alarmist approach might scare you away from buying a house which is actually perfectly workable. Our inspector (not Tim alas) did provide a very thorough report, including some significant red flags that we indeed will need to watch out for (i.e. erosion of foundation). But, when I spoke to the inspector to find out how scary these issues were (as some may recall, I was very nervous after receiving the "fair" rating), our inspector pointed out that, in spite of the scary-sounding language in the report, many of the issues he pointed out were in fact quite par for the course with these old brownstones. It would be a pity to be driven away from a potentially good purchase by an inspector who does not carefully explain that, while issues are important to point out, they can also be addressed and repaired. That said, our inspector worked with us to give estimates for the costs to repair these issues, and we used the report to negotiate $50K off of our purchase price.
Posted by: housesearcher at April 1, 2008 9:22 PM in response to House Inspection
In general, it's said that you always recoup investment on bathrooms and kitchens. But, and this is a big but, that might be different in an uncertain real estate market. From my own experience, I believe we made a major return on our investment when we turned an extra half bath into a full (thereby converting our apt from 1.5 baths to 2 full ones, which hugely increased its value). However we very consciously did NOT remodel our kitchen, nor did we completely redo our other full bath: our thinking was that, to really significantly increase value, we had to structurally change the apt (that is, adding a whole 2nd bath as opposed to having only a toilet there). Doing a cosmetic fix seemed riskier in terms of return on investment since our kitchen and other bath were perfectly OK (and we had done some less costly, but still important, improvements i.e. a new bathroom floor and sink, new stove & frig in kitchen) so spending another 10-20K to redo tile work and remaining fixtures seemed unlikely to yield much return, esp since potential buyers may just want to redo to their own taste anyway. On the other hand, if your kitchen and bath are truly very dumpy, and you plan to sell soon, you might be wise to at least do some fixes - you might be able to do some things that are not extremely expensive but still improve the overall impression (redoing the floor in our older full bathroom is a case in point - it cost about $1500 and made a HUGE difference to the overall impression of the room).
Posted by: housesearcher at April 1, 2008 9:16 PM in response to How much return on my renovations?
We did a gut on a half bath which we turned into a full. It came out beautifully, but afterwards, our original full bath looked dingy, and mainly due to the floor - like you, we had white floor tile and a couple of them were cracked and the grout was yucky. Also like you, I didn't want to gut it so asked the contractor to just replace the few cracked tiles. Well, it was impossible to match the 1980s tile so we ended up having to replace the floor. However, one good piece of news is that, while I originally thought we had to rip up the old tile, in fact, all we had to do was tile over it. It was simple, and relatively inexpensive (compared to the can of worms we'd have had if we'd ripped up the whole floor). We splurged a bit on black glossy Ann Sacks hex tile - I thought of getting something cheaper from Bergen Tile/Dal Tile etc but the Ann Sacks was just so much nicer and still not horrifically expensive since it was one of the cheapest in their line. Anyway, it was a GREAT investment - totally transformed the bathroom which now looks great, even though the wall tile is nothing special. Not sure if you own or rent, but if you own, it is an investment that will pay for itself in resale value.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 31, 2008 11:42 PM in response to regrout vs. retile
We are in contract for a 3 story brownstone that is basically in decent condition - certainly not a gut. But it does need a lot of work - reconfiguring, new floors, new kitchen, baths, exterior work, etc. The lowest estimates we've gotten have been 300K but more people say 450K is more realistic. The slightly fancier architects say 500-550K. And this is with modest finishes (we are not fancy types). Overall, $200/psf seems a very conservative estimate. Good luck!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 31, 2008 11:34 PM in response to Tips before buying a shell?
Yeah, what's up with the exterior? Hard to tell from the photos but is all the brownstone basically gone?
Posted by: housesearcher at March 26, 2008 3:25 PM in response to House of the Day: 106 Park Place
FYI, our new full bath (no bathtub, just a shower, but a really nice one) is still a very small space, only about 4 x 5, and yet it feels very spacious and airy due to great design (we credit our designer). So, even small spaces can be maximized to make them feel bigger than they are. Not sure what the actual measurements are of your "extremely small" BR's, but food for thought. Also, is there any other part of apt that can be eaten into to go towards the bathrooms? In our case, we gave up a linen closet in bedroom adjacent to half bath (that closet was the space we used to make a shower in new full bath) and it was totally worth it (luckily, the apt has lots of other closets).
Posted by: housesearcher at March 25, 2008 10:52 PM in response to Renovation rough estimate?
We gutted a half bath and converted to full bath for about $12Km but with a pretty inexpensive contractor and no architect, though our designer was indispensable. Our finishes were very nice but not ultra high end (tile for example was about 10/sf). In my experience, having more than one bath is *very* valuable to people so I would at the very least keep 1.5 baths.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 24, 2008 9:16 PM in response to Renovation rough estimate?
OK, advice for how to avoid snarkiness useful, but re: questioning professionals - the problem is I've found they give *conflicting* advice sometimes (or wrong advice, as 3:06 pointed out).Hence the usefulness of this list to seek advice from people who have *actually* been through what we (and others) are planning, and who presumably have nothing to gain by giving wrong advice (which is not nec the case with some professionals who might be seeking to profit from you). Googling cannot always be trusted, so I really do appreciate the helpful advice some have shard. Glad some find the posts/threads helpful. Trolls are just sad but I guess one must simply ignore them. OK, I think this thread is done!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 20, 2008 9:44 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
11:42 - OK, fair enough. But the reason for my current "neediness" is precisely a lack of experience in undertaking a major renovation such as what we're planning (hence a lot of questions). So far, our renovation experience, or for that matter, real estate experience has been very limited to our apt which was move-in condition though we did gut a half bath to make it full. So I have not had much experience from which to offer sage advice and I don't want to just spout ignorant speculation. But in the future, I should be much more experienced and would of course share that experience in the same way that others on this list generously have. So, thanks to all who have offered advice and I am looking forward to being able to reciprocate in the future.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 19, 2008 11:57 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
11:01 - You know, this is not the only listserve I use, and what can be nice about listserves is when strangers genuinely help each other out by sharing advice, experiences, etc. which can in the best of cases create a sense of community. I do feel that this happens on this list, and for that, am grateful that is exists. I guess it's just unfortunate that the list gets hijacked by all the bitter nasty posts (certainly not just in response to my posts - my jaw has dropped over the gratuitous nastiness on some other threads). I must say, I don't see that happen on the other listserves I visit. Maybe NYC real estate just brings out the worst in some people...
Posted by: housesearcher at March 19, 2008 11:08 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
10:02 - We are not walking away from this house per se - we are waiting to find out if the title is clear. If it is, we're buying it. If it's not, we're selling our apt anyway and continuing our search for a house. I guess "meanies" was an unfortunate choice of word, but my point is that people who are just mean and angry-sounding don't contribute anything useful to this list. Even among those who have cautioned us against this house, there are plenty who did so in civil and truly helpful ways (i.e. warning that they had considered narrower homes and found that they preferred wider ones). It's not that I don't like the advice - all *constructive* advice is appreciated (and I have considered it in my research), but ultimately anyone's choice to buy a home is deeply personal and to call people names - on an *anonymous* blog and insult their character, and use words like "inane" (when others have stated that the discussions are helpful) strikes me as bizarre at best, but these vitriolic unconstructive posts also clog this list - kind of like spam. If you don't like my posts, don't read or respond to them - please don't hog space on threads that others are reading to seek constructive discussion.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 19, 2008 10:55 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
Thanks 8:44 - yes, the hostility on this list is out of control. We actually have been thinking of getting a new accountant (he screwed up last year but we have not had time to find someone new) but have to make a decision fast about selling our place, so figured it was useful to post on a list of people who are presumably very knowledgeable about real estate instead of scrambling to find a new accountant which we'll probably do once we get through this big real estate transaction.
Truly, what is the point of just saying mean things?
Every time someone's critiqued my posts, several people have pointed out that the discussions have yielded info useful to others. I think the meanies are the ones who should go away!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 19, 2008 9:30 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
I believe the broker was talking about an exterior French drain. Yes, I know I have to be wary of a broker's advice, though he is also someone who owns several properties so I thought it was worth researching his suggestion further.
So if we do an exterior French drain, what is a ballpark cost to have in mind for a bldg that is 16.5 x 40? And if you do an exterior one, does that rule out the need to do an interior one in addition? If there are vendors people can recommend to get ballpark estimates, that would be helpful too. The broker recommended Vulcan - anyone use them?
Again, suggestions greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 16, 2008 11:24 PM in response to French drain to waterproof cellar - how successful?
12:57 - thanks! This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for (and thanks too to Mrs. Limestone, 8:20 and 6:30 and others with useful answers). As for the location, yes, we've thought about the issue of our friends moving, but really the location is about as prime as you can get even if they move - that just adds a very special extra incentive which is truly unique to us (and is probably why we bid higher than others). But for sure, the location is the key thing convincing us that it can't be that bad an investment, even if the renovation is expensive.
When we bought our apt (also in great location), I too continued visiting tons of open houses after going to contract and did tons more research on the apt and others like it - it turned out to be a great investment, so that's a comforting reminder as we embark on this house.
My European husband actually hates A/C and central air so at least that will save us money (and I also prefer good old-fashioned ceiling fans and open windows for the few weeks of the year that you really need them).
At this point, the thing that actually worries me most about the house is this new legal snag since the owner never revealed until this past week that there were title problems. So, after all my research, it may fall through due to that! But no matter what, this process has been extremely educational.
One other question: as a back-up (since the legal issues now put this house in jeopardy), we've looked at a few other houses in last week. They too are listed as 16.5 x 40 (actually 16.7 but that's almost same thing), but when I took the interior measurements (yes, I actually brought a tape-measure), they were longer inside than the house we're hopefully about to buy. Our house is about 36'11" in interior walls, whereas other houses I've seen this past week are more like 40-42' interior walls, even though they are listed on Property Shark as being 40'. Is it common for Property Shark to be so off? Just curious since one thing I've gotten by going to other open houses of houses listed as same size is to try and envision possibilities of house we're buying. Since current owner has it so cluttered and chopped up, we're trying to imagine it opened up and decluttered. But now I think these other houses listed as same size are not a good comparison since they actually might be a bit bigger.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 16, 2008 2:28 PM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
10:34 - We were able to knock down $50K off purchase price to reflect need for new electicity/plumbing. Since the house is small (16.5 x 40, 3 floors), it's not as expensive as it would be for a 20' 4 story house. Plus, lack of old detail makes renovation easier since there's not much to tiptoe around/preserve. We of course tried to knock down much more off the purchase price but 50 is what we settled on. Frankly, we think we are overpaying a bit, but the location is absolutely perfect for us (right next to our best friends) and we are tentatively excited about being able to renovate it to our taste (though it's nervous-making given the potential cost).
Posted by: housesearcher at March 16, 2008 9:24 AM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
I don't get the layout - is the ground floor also the equivalent of the basement? It seems to have the mechanicals in it. Seems like a very awkward layout to have kitchen/dining/LR on 2nd floor. For that reason alone, I would not pay this price.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 15, 2008 4:37 PM in response to Fair price for s. slope house?
Actually, what I did not understand is how many houses have truly had recent, full upgrades that were done right, and did not need improvement. No one I know has bought such a house, and it's not been clear to me how many of the houses we've seen have really been updated properly. For example, this house we are buying was marketed as having upgraded electric/plumbing but then the inspection revealed that the plumbing was in fact aging/degraded (so either the owner was lying or unaware of real condition), and while the electric had had some upgrades they were not to code and were poorly done and thus needed to be redone. This is especially crucial since there was a scary (and dangerous) electrical fire in this house a few years ago, precisely due to electric not being done right.
We like the idea of being able to customize the house cosmetically to our taste, and the lower purchase price is attractive to us from that perspective - that is, this seems like a unique opportunity to redo a house they way we want, instead of paying for someone else's renovations - but we are not as excited about having to do the numerous costly structural fixes. Given my experience with this house (misrepresented as being "all new" and "move-in" structurally), I'm wondering how often others have truly been able to just move in without any upgrades. Our original offer was based on cosmetic work only, so the inspection was a rude awakening to all of the structural problems.
We actually have decided to buy this house in spite of these problems, but now there is a legal hitch due to title problems which were not revealed by the owner until last week (so it may all fall through) so I am continuing to educate myself about brownstone renovation, as we wait for contracts to be prepared, provided the legal issues get sorted out.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 15, 2008 4:28 PM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
FWIW, my husband is European and renovated a place he had there beautifully and economically, preserving old detail while adding modern touches - his sale of that place is what's allowing us to trade up. And we are frugal types (bring our lunch to work everyday, make most purchases on sale, etc.). But I also don't believe in being penny-wise and pound foolish - that is, I'd rather pay to fix something right (i.e. electricity/plumbing) than risk an accident. And, while this is a more personal issue, it's not worth it to us to make what is already a significant investment to trade up, only to live in a place that we find dumpy (since our current apt is really nice but will be too small for us long-term, whereas the current house owner just did sad things like put in new, cheap, ugly floors). At the very least, we need to make some cosmetic fixes (in addition to important structural fixes) to feel good about living there! But we are planning to be frugal about the cosmetic choices i.e. Ikea cabinets, mid-range appliances, etc. (and if we can recycle/resuse, all the better!) And of course, I know phasing things is key though I'm also learning that it can be more expensive to not do certain things (i.e. plumbing) all at the same time.
10:35's point of doing lots of research is obviously something I agree with! Hence I don't get the posters who critique me for asking lots of questions on this board. In fact, a major thing I'm trying to research is precisely whether we will ultimately be putting more into this house than what its market value would be when fully done. I really think this house is right on the threshold of that question - great location, but the house itself is small and pretty dumpy (without, alas, much of the old charm that some brownstones have) we have to have vision and a smart renovation plan to make it worth it. The main reason we are buying it is for the perfect location and the opportunity to buy something with a purchase price that reflects the need to renovate, instead of having to pay several 100K more and then find we have no money left to renovate - if indeed, most brownstones would need renovation anyway.
Anyway, my OP was really about this question of whether people find that ANY brownstone, even one with some upgrades since being built 100 years ago, needs some renovation. We've seen lots of places with higher asks than this house we're buying, but IMO, they looked like they *still* needed quite a bit of work, but I'm wondering if they are in better shape than they seem. And, on the other hand, I'm curious if the houses in the 2-3+ million dollar range (well beyond our budget) are generally fully upgraded - or if, even at the price point, you *still* often need to do work - and I imagine that gets really expensive since they are bigger and hence there's more house to fix up. What I'm getting from this thread so far is that there probably are very few houses that don't need some additional investment beyond the purchase price.
By the way, we do intend to live in the house for a few months before we begin the renovation, precisely to get to know it better and also save money on a rental while we select contractor/architect. But since we have had lots of discussions already, and there is so much to be done, it's clear that we have to put in a big chunk towards the renovation no matter what (just to fix plumbing/electric/exterior/basement flooding, plus open up parlor level walls, put in new kitchen, etc).
Again, thanks to those who provide useful feedback - it's very interesting and helpful to me!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 15, 2008 3:11 PM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
Actually, 12:17, this is the first house we actually inspected (it's not like we throw around inspection money every time we see or even make an offer on a house!), and I was very surprised to learn from the inspector (and architects) that most of the problems uncovered were, from what I was told, typical of most brownstones. So yes, we've seen tons of houses, but there's a big difference between seeing something on the surface and going as far as inspection, detailed conversations with architects, etc. I don't yet have many friends how have bought brownstones but the ones who have actually all have to sink quite a bit of money into upgrades, but since that's a small group, I really wondered if this is typical.
As for cost of the renovation and what we "need" to do - there's not much detail left and the current owner alas made some very bad choices so the house needs reconfiguration plus new floors, walls, kitchen, baths, plus exterior work and issues such as addressing a flooding basement. Certainly hope to do for less than 400K (and no, it's not a total gut) but this figure has come from a range of people so we're being conservative for now though yes, we'll probably phase the work.
I really don't get people who critique other people's questions on this list - what is the point? I have learned a lot from reading others' posts. For example, the posts about people's income vs. their mortgage have been very informative (i.e. in the gentrification thread), and actually have helped me see the value of stretching ourselves so no, we probably will not wait and save more for now, but rather renovate in phases (or ideally, less expensively if we can).
Anyway, thanks to all who are providing useful responses - that's what is great about this list and I just wish the negative folks would stop cluttering the board with their mean-spirited and totally unhelpful posts. And for the record, when we did renovate in our apt, we were very clear about our decisions and everything was done on time and well within budget - we just did lots of research before starting!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 15, 2008 12:39 AM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
4:40 - maybe you're new to this list, but sadly there is a lot of vitriol which I always feel is so useless. Anyway, this is an interesting thread and I for one appreciate when people share their experiences, whether as a guest or with a more specific ID.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 15, 2008 12:25 AM in response to GENTRIFICATION
And 10:58, I'm not renting, I already own a beautiful apt that only needed limited renovation.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 14, 2008 11:00 PM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
10:40 - why the hostility? This is what gives this list a bad rap.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 14, 2008 10:59 PM in response to Do brownstones usually need renovation?
Is there no garden? If there is no garden, would someone really want to shell out that much?
Posted by: housesearcher at March 3, 2008 2:51 PM in response to House of the Day: 150 Bond Street
3:42 - As someone who both owns a big apt and is considering trading up now to a small house, I have, I hope, a somewhat neutral perspective in the "state of the market" wars. I agree that the housing run-ups of the last 5 years (from which I benefited) are unsustainable and at best, will level off. That would be an argument for taking your time if you don't find the right property to buy - that is, you don't have to feel rushed since prices are not going to rise fast in the next 5 years. But, on the flip side, if you DO find the perfect property for your needs, why NOT buy now? If prices are not going to plummet (and I think most of the predictions are that prices may decline in fringe areas, but less so in prime ones), it's not like the properties will get that much cheaper, and where else would you put your money in the meantime? Stocks are volatile and bond/savings returns are shrinking. Also presumably, you'd want your money fairly liquid in case the right thing comes along. Really, I'm curious where you will get the better return on your investment than the money you will save by building equity and not paying rent. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, just trying to better understand your logic.
Posted by: housesearcher at March 1, 2008 11:59 PM in response to Open House Picks
Thank you, Mrs. Limestone for pointing out that not all jobs needs to be 2x as expensive/long. Many other people have told me this and I always find it upsetting when others spread these kinds of fears. We did renovations on our apt and they were well within budget and did not take too long (though that was a much smaller job). Still, we stuck to our decisions, made good choices of finishes, and were firm with our contractor. We hope to do the same with this house, though realistically, we realize there are way more unknowns so we are planning to build a contingency into our budget and make sure we can afford the job *with* the contingency.
We would never *replace* our own eyes, but the reality is our eyes will frequently be stuck in the office or with our kids, and we learned in the apt renovations that sometimes decisions can't wait - hence the need for a project manager, esp since there are a lot of little but crucial decisions that constantly come up. We are prepared to devote a huge amount of attention to this, but we simply cannot quit our jobs so that makes availability a lot more limited. I work from home 2 days/week so at least will be be available those days, but will sometimes have my kids - so we need someone else we trust to project manage on daily basis. We will certainly interview a range of architects, including some who may charge smaller % fees, but we want to avoid being penny-wise and pound foolish - that is, we want an architect experienced enough to be efficient and avoid mistakes. Luckily, our designer wants to be on this job at whatever level so I think she'll be flexible about what stage she's brought in at - we'd love to have her there for the whole thing but this might be an unaffordable luxury if it's more efficient for the architect to do the whole thing, in which case designer might just be consultant at the end.
Re: design/build firms - I've heard of the one in Clinton Hill - what other ones do people recommend? And what are the downsides to using design/build firms?
Posted by: housesearcher at March 1, 2008 11:48 PM in response to Renovation team - what's most cost-effective without sacrificing quality?
10:02 - yes, bringing our designer in at the end is one thought, and maybe having her consult along the way to point out detail-oriented issues i.e. molding/cabinetry issues. We of course would also talk to architects since I do think, in an ideal world, it would be best to find an architect who could do both so that it's "one-stop-shopping" but it may be hard to find an architect who can do this job affordably who shares our aesthetic as much as the designer (who is also much cheaper than an architect) - so in that case, splitting the job to have the architect do the heavy lifting, and the designer work on the finishes/details might make sense.
Regarding price and timeline, can you share what you experienced? The house we're looking at is 16.5 x 40, 3 floors. It would be especially helpful to hear from someone who has just done this kind of renovation the ballpark range of costs and time required. Thanks!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 1, 2008 10:23 PM in response to Renovation team - what's most cost-effective without sacrificing quality?
Yes, house does have FAR left over. In fact, only about half the FAR is used by the current house...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 5:30 PM in response to house cost per square foot?
From my own experience researching a house that needs a lot of work, your budget sounds generous - though I'm not sure how big it is, a critical variable. Also, restoring and working around detail is more expensive than being able to get rid of it if that's more cost effective. I've also learned that most brownstones have issues that an inspection turns up, so that's par for the course. My advice would be: if the purchase price is low enough to make it worth it to you, and if you relish the chance to make this yours despite the trade-offs of many headaches and stress, go for it. Otherwise, others may be right that you probably have the cash to buy a house in move-in condition.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 2:42 PM in response to Renovating a house in terrible shape???
11:11 - Actually, I am decisive and have a high-responsibility job where I make decisions, quickly, every day. We have also considered many other houses, and very decisively opted NOT to buy them. But buying a house - and especially this one, which is at the very edge of what we can afford - is an extremely important decision and I am just doing as much due diligence as I possibly can. I did the same when we purchased our apt which at the time seemed very expensive - so I also did tons of research and ultimately decided to buy it. I don't see how doing a lot of research is a problem. And it seems that the threads I've begun have yielded discussion that is hopefully helpful to others. As I become more knowledgeable from this process, I of course hope to share what I learn so as to be helpul on this list. The frequency of my posts of late is simply since the time frame to make this decision is very telescoped. So, others, I would still love to hear your thoughts on a reasonable cost per square foot on a house in PS. Thanks.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 12:17 PM in response to house cost per square foot?
How big is your parlor floor? How much of a change is the kitchen? We've been given total project budget quotes of about 175-200 to totally gut a parlor floor (16.5 x 40), put in kitchen where there is none, break down walls & reconfigure, all new everything (very little details to preserve). Some people even think we could do this floor for less. I think it depends on who you speak to, what kind of finishes you want, etc. I don't think this budget is laughable if you find the right architect and/or contractor...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 9:03 AM in response to 100 k--how far can this go
For comps, I just looked on Property Shark - poking around at what various houses in PS sold for in the last year. Is there a better way to get comps?
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 8:15 AM in response to house cost per square foot?
Thanks everyone. To clarify, I have been speaking to GC's, but, for example, have found a few things to be confusing: 1) many people tell me that it's ALWAYS more than the GC originally says; 2) some GC's factor in materials (i.e. appliances, tile), others don't. So, I'm really asking others who have the experience doing to comment based on what their costs have been. Re: whether we use an architect - we have been advised by some people that we don't necessarily need an architect since the house is small and there are not that many options. I'm leaning towards using an architect, since I think it's worth it to optimize the space, but I'm just exploring different ways to do this, in order to weigh the best results vs. the cost effectiveness.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 18, 2008 2:48 PM in response to cost to gut reno 16.5 x 40 brownstone?
So what does sound realistic? 400? 450? We are about to renegotiate purchase price based on renovation needed so I'm wondering what's safe to earmark. The house has all kinds of problems - rotting joists, shoddy workmanship, dangerous electricity (it had a fire a few years ago) - though what's hard to tell from speaking to architect/inspectors is how much of this is pretty typical in these old brownstones. It was represented as being all new mechanicals, so needless to say, the fact that they are in such bad shape requires a major reconsideration...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 18, 2008 10:00 AM in response to cost to gut reno 16.5 x 40 brownstone?
Well I've done some more research and here's what I found. There is a stream on the block but the neighbors do use their basements (or cellars, as I believe is the correct term) as living space but informal i.e. for their kids to play and/or have band practice/watch TV, etc. One neighbor excavated, the other did not, but they both kept concrete floors. They have occasionally had some water, but that's because the owner of the house we're considering buying has not properly sealed up holes in the back walls that adjoin the neighbors' property (she has taken terrible care of the house, which is pretty much a wreck/total gut). An architect tells me we might be able to get a little light from the garden with a hatch window somehow, but even if we don't, and even if in the future we don't "officially" consider it part of square footage, we would like to do something similar - even if it's with a cheap tile or concrete floor. We don't delude ourselves that it can be a real bedroom - we'll probably just try to get 3 bedrooms out of 2 of the other floors, whether on garden and top floor, or garden and parlor (house is 3 stories, 16.5 x 40), but again, we'd like to squeeze every bit of usable space out of it...
If others have had luck, or think this is crazy, let me know...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 17, 2008 3:48 PM in response to basement flood/waterproofing?
When we did a small job in our apartment, we need some glass and were told that Park Slope glass was overpriced. You might want to shop around...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 17, 2008 3:06 PM in response to best windows for landmark brownstone
11:38 = broker/seller/or another party with an agenda
Posted by: housesearcher at February 16, 2008 10:11 PM in response to Open House Picks
Don't know if labor is cheaper in the mysterious city in which you are buying, but in NYC, I've been told $200 psf is pretty much the lowest you want to estimate - you might be able to save below that here and there with careful choices (i.e. Ikea cabinetry that's customized a bit to make it better). So, if you have 2000 sf per floor, that's already 400K per floor, and if you have 3 floors that size, that's 1.2 million! Maybe I misunderstood the size of this building - 2000 sf per floor sounds huge...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 16, 2008 9:09 PM in response to The cost of new everything
Just want to thank people for their input - of course, I know no one can tell me what I want. But it's very helpful to hear the pros and cons of living in this kind of space, since right now, our space is quite different and I'm just trying to envision how it feels to live in this kind of narrow brownstone space. The truth is, I doubt we can afford an 18 or 20 footer, unless we totally change location, and I'm not sure we are willing to do that - so I know we can't have it all and we have to make compromises. The only thing that would change that would be a significant shift in the market, which is a big gamble I know. Anyway, I appreciate all the perspectives on this topic!
Posted by: housesearcher at February 15, 2008 10:36 PM in response to 16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
Hey 5:06 pm - Well, that gives me hope. Would you be willing to share your architect's name? I also wish there was a way for people to connect on this list without publicly having to give out personal contact info - if you know of a way to do so, I'd be interested to speak to you more. Thanks!
Posted by: housesearcher at February 15, 2008 5:19 PM in response to 16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
OK, here's another question which granted, may require a crystal ball, or at least some economists among us: if you were in our situation (we have substantial cash from another real estate sale, sitting in a high-interest savings acct), would you grab this house now, since so few ever seem to come on the market? Or would you wait to watch the market? Our dilemma is that we may never find a better location - in large part since the house is right next to our very close friends, in school we want, in neighborhood we want, etc. But, it is undeniably small, needs a lot of work, and we wonder if we would regret buying it if the market turns and we find that (even if our apt goes down in value) we can buy a lot more house for our money. If values dipped back down to 2004-5 levels, for example, we might even be able to buy a house and keep our apt, by renting it out and leveraging the extra rent (which would be significantly higher than our carrying costs) to defray the extra mortgage on the house. Any house will involve compromises and I know ultimately it's our gut feeling that counts, but just curious about the temperature of the market, vs. the fact that inventory seems perpetually low in these prime areas...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 15, 2008 4:03 PM in response to 16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
What about the argument that a house is just more valuable than an apartment, since you can grow into it. One big perk of this house is that the location simply is our ideal (very close to our best friends, in the truly best part of Bklyn that we love), the garden is very big, house gets great light, and once we live on 3 floors, we will have more space than we have now. Is it worth the sacrifice of the first few years to have something more spacious later? I kind of like the "nautical" feeling of small spaces - that is, making small spaces work efficiently - but I also don't want to do it if the 16.5 x 40 is just too darn teeny. I'm hearing different things on this list, some folks say it will feel tiny, others say you can make it feel spacious. Maybe I just need to hear from more people who've totally opened up the parlor floor to make it feel bigger - how well does that work?
Posted by: housesearcher at February 15, 2008 3:35 PM in response to 16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
Of course, we are planning on hiring an architect but the problem I'm having is that we have to sign house contract before hiring the architect and so I'm trying to get a general sense, from people who own such houses, if this small a house can feel spacious. Right now, the current owner has her parlor floor chopped up, warren-like, into small rooms so it looks really bad. Top floor is better but still has wasted space (2 hallways - one exterior to apt and one inside, since it's a rental and has to be made private).
So - anyone out there who has loved their 16.5 x 40 house and can confidently say it can feel bigger than it's dimensions would suggest? Please note our budget is evidently tight - we were planning on 200-250K for the renovation (seems like a lot to us) but from the preliminary discussions I've had with architects/contractors so far, they indicate that's actually small since one can easily spend 200-250 per floor - though we are fine with making compromises i.e. Ikea kitchen, to stay on more modest budget.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 15, 2008 9:03 AM in response to 16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?
I live in PS and while I don't mean to be a humorless killjoy, I find the PS stereotypes kind of tiring. I myself am a hard-working mom (juggling a demanding job) and yes, we own our apartment, but only because my husband and I both work hard to pay the bills on it. Yes, we did have a bit of family help at the beginning for a down-payment (which years ago, was a modest affair) and now, yes, we are trying to parlay our apt, which has doubled in value, to a house - but actually, we are finding it very challenging to afford more space in PS. In other words, we are hardly smug hedge fund stroller pushers - more like frazzled parents trying to keep it together and be responsible to our families, co-workers, friends and community. Despite the expense of real estate in PS, we love it here and don't want to leave - why? The park, the coop, the schools, and yes, the sense of community. Sure, there are probably some of the annoying types that the stereotypes are based on, but they are really only a fraction of the population, and it gets boring how that same small group becomes a stand-in for everyone in the neighborhood.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 13, 2008 9:20 PM in response to Closing Bell: Sign o' the Times in Park Slope
OK, thanks, that's helpful, but is there still a "rule of thumb" i.e. 200/psf? As for condition of mechanicals, they are in decent shape (current owner upgraded electrical service but perhaps not the full distribution). So, it's not a total gut - though it's also not totally cosmetic either. What the heck do people do when deciding whether to purchase these homes? Even this little one is not cheap, so must you just be wealthy to conceive of renovation? Sigh - I thought we were there, but I'm now getting scared of biting off more than we can chew. Any other advice appreciated...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 13, 2008 7:50 PM in response to Contractor price per square foot?
Re:whether NYC RE market will crash - I would not be surprised if there was a correction/stagnation in some parts of the NY metropolitan market, but aren't there real demographic pressures on NYC that do make it different than other places? After all, supply and demand are complex, and if there are simply too many people seeking family sized places in prime areas, and supply of these kinds of places is scarce, does that not bolster the prices? I absolutely think that the gains of the last 5-10 years are not sustainable and people will not see that kind of appreciation again for a long, long time, but I also wonder if good quality properties in prime areas will hold their value best in this market, even if prices stagnate while we ride out some tough economic times...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 3, 2008 3:12 PM in response to Open House Picks
Just feel compelled to clarify re: ING - the CD rates I quoted are rollover rates (that is, I think you already have to have a CD now to qualify for rates over 4%). But their electric orange savings acct is at 4.25%. Anyway, my point is that I do think there are smarter places to park your cash short-term right now than rushing into real estate if you feel you are making a huge price/quality compromise. From my perspective, many properties really are overvalued now, including, dare I say, my own. It's really the whole market that feels quite unsustainable right now.
Posted by: housesearcher at January 25, 2008 3:57 PM in response to Open House Picks: Six Months Later 8/3/07
Rehab, I'm with you, what a dopey mistake to say something is "simplistically" designed. It's not about this one error, it's about being sloppy in general. Plus the house looks overpriced.
Posted by: housesearcher at January 25, 2008 2:50 PM in response to Open House Picks
Re: ING - they have short-term CD's you can lock into for well over 4%, and then they offer roll-over bonuses. Is your money going to make more than 4% in housing/stocks in next 6 months to a year? I doubt it. Again, if the perfect opportunity comes up within your budget - at whatever time - I think housing is a good long-term investment if only because you need a place to live. But really, there seems to be consensus even among brokers that there is a rational shift happening in the market and buyers are in no rush to buy. Well-priced, quality properties will always sell but overreaching ones won't. Of course, there are going to be many opinions about what is "well-priced" and I suppose that's borne out on this blog. I'm obviously in a different position than a renter since I already own and am trading up, not throwing rent money away. Also, I have the luxury of cash that's not dependent on selling my current apt. But I've been reading more and more that it's actually not a bad time to be renting, especially if you ARE depending on selling your place to trade up. The climate is just changing and there is no question that many people are finding things take longer to sell, and often price cuts are required, even in NYC. I think we'll just see more of the same in the next year or two. Believe me, I don't want the NYC market to tank since then we'll all have other problems, but I'm also trying to be realistic.
Posted by: housesearcher at January 25, 2008 2:29 PM in response to Open House Picks: Six Months Later 8/3/07
Responses to Author's Forum Comments
We recently struggled with an original floor made of round "penny" tiles. Old grout was worn/dried enough that I was able to get new stuff to stick on top for several years. But it was a temp fix.
Bigger problem was a crack from where the underlying slab had settled. Patch remained stable, so it wasn't moving anymore, but it still looked like hell.
We wound up going with a new floor on top of the old one...thin leveling coat with new tiles set on that.
One thing on the tile: In our place, the original tile was porcelain. That means the color goes all the way through, and is not a glaze. This stuff is period correct, and looks better in my view. The matte finish is also considerably less slippery when wet.
It is not hard to find, but we did discover that prices varied tremendously (like, by a factor of two) for identical product. So definitely call around.
Make sure to use a good grout sealer when you’re done.
Geometry of hex tiles means they have less grout surface between them to get dirty than do the rounds.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 11:51 AM in response to regrout vs. retile
Try Magic Eraser on the grout. Maybe you will get lucky.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 3:32 PM in response to regrout vs. retile
agreed. if you're doing the reno solely to boost your return, spend the minimum to make it look as clean, new and spacious as possible. other than that, you're not going to get the money back because no one is going to pay a premium for your personal taste. if you're doing the reno for your own personal enjoyment, then spend away, keeping in mind that much of the value will go toward your own consumption rather than roi.
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 10:10 AM in response to How much return on my renovations?
Thanks for all your suggestions, and yes, it is a 4'x4' kitchen, which looks like it hasn't been updated since the 1970s....
Posted by: brooklyn1004 at April 2, 2008 2:35 PM in response to How much return on my renovations?
4' by 4' including cabinets and applicances? I think you are referring to the footprint that you can walk into, unless I am still missing something. How can you fit a refrigerator, sink and a stove into 4' x 4'? Back to back?
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 3:19 PM in response to How much return on my renovations?
Woops, forgot to add that the places that source fixtures/tile might be able to help with ballpark labor estimates - we were able to get a sense of installation costs when we were shopping for tile... Though of course, getting an estimate from a contractor is best way to go. Why not look up a recommended contractor and have them come take a look at your place to give a more specific estimate? It can be a relatively quick process and then you'll really have a better sense!
Posted by: housesearcher at April 2, 2008 11:48 PM in response to About how much to renovate small BATH & KITCHEN???
Great, thanks for all your help housesearcher (and everyone except trolls)!
Posted by: sushi at April 3, 2008 1:38 PM in response to About how much to renovate small BATH & KITCHEN???
I recently sold my house (a primary residence) after my wife passed, that was earlier in the year transferred to a trust on the advice of a lawyer as my wife was gravely ill, to protect it against medi-cal costs for her long term care. Now, speaking with a cpa, I've discovered I no longer qualify for the 500k deduction, much less 250k (for just myself), since the house belonged to a trust. The cap gains were a little under 500K, and I thought I wouldn't even have to report it on Sched D, much less pay anything.
My question is, what is the level of risk if I go ahead and not report it, assuming I would still qualify for the 500K exclusion? Would it be better to just go ahead and pay for 250K cap gain (as single)? It was not in a trust for much more than a year, and my wife had passed the year before.
Posted by: guest at April 10, 2008 2:11 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
I recently sold my house (a primary residence) after my wife passed, that was earlier in the year transferred to a trust on the advice of a lawyer as my wife was gravely ill, to protect it against medi-cal costs for her long term care. Now, speaking with a cpa, I've discovered I no longer qualify for the 500k deduction, much less 250k (for just myself), since the house belonged to a trust. The cap gains were a little under 500K, and I thought I wouldn't even have to report it on Sched D, much less pay anything.
My question is, what is the level of risk if I go ahead and not report it, assuming I would still qualify for the 500K exclusion? Would it be better to just go ahead and pay for 250K cap gain (as single)? It was not in a trust for much more than a year, and my wife had passed the year before.
Posted by: guest at April 10, 2008 2:12 PM in response to Capital gains on sale - how long do you have to reinvest proceeds?
Prices vary based on square feet, location and finish. Consumer Reports used to have a kitchen renovation cost calculator on their website, which I can't seem to find anymore. This was for complete and total renovation, including appliances, labor--everything.
When I checked last summer for myself, in zip code 11215, for an 8x9 foot kitchen, the range was $30K for economy, $53K median and $95K for luxury.
Posted by: guest at April 19, 2008 6:25 PM in response to About how much to renovate small BATH & KITCHEN???
Woops, forgot to add that the places that source fixtures/tile might be able to help with ballpark labor estimates - we were able to get a sense of installation costs when we were shopping for tile... Though of course, getting an estimate from a contractor is best way to go. Why not look up a recommended contractor and have them come take a look at your place to give a more specific estimate? It can be a relatively quick process and then you'll really have a better sense!
Posted by: housesearcher at April 2, 2008 11:48 PM in response to About how much to renovate small BATH & KITCHEN???