I know a little about this building ...

The resale restriction is realted to income, not an absolute ban on sale. Prospective buyers must meet the same income eligibility guidelines you had to meet. The lottery units are on the first five floors, market rate units are in the tower portion. Kitchen appliance packages are different, othewise all units will feature same fixtures, floors, countertops, etc.

With any new construction, you will be going into contract before building completion, and without having seen the finsihed unit. For market rate places, this usually is a risk worth taking if you think the property will have appreciated by close. In this case as a lottery beneficiary, you have built in equity though the subsidy which lowers your risk greatly should prices fail to appreciate.

Regarding available units, some two beds were available but those were snapped up early. Those places had the biggest % of discount relative to the market units. The studios and 1 beds are definitely less of a bargain.

Regarding the "bargain" issue, it's all relative. This isn't a low income project. If it were, you and your family would likely not have qualified and you wouldn't have the opportunity to live in a building of this type, full service, high amenities, etc. So no, the Toren lottery isn't a case where you'll get in the door for half off for for a super low price, what you do get is a discount on a nice building that isn't available to the non lottery buyers.

Like other posters said, trust your instincts but just thought I'd clarify on a few points.

Posted by: brine deez at July 18, 2008 1:41 PM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

the mortgage interest deduction can't stand on the fact that people who benefit from it are people who pay taxes. in new york city how many millions of renters pay taxes but have no similar vehicle for recouping them? a decision has been made to offset the cost of owning financed real estate, nothing wrong with that, but hardly a self evident use of tax resources. On a different note, I wonder if other western countries have similar practices when it comes to mortgage interest deductions.

Posted by: brine deez at July 17, 2008 5:38 PM in response to John Catsimatidis: Tough Guy For Tough Times

Ditto,

I tried posting a response to you several times but my comments seem to be getting lost in the ether. I'm wondering if the weblinks I embedded caused the problems.

Perhaps the post will show up eventually. The short version is that there's plenty of evidence of what I said. Look up HUD's budget for housing programs as compared to the value of foregone taxes for mortgage interest deductions.

Posted by: brine deez at July 17, 2008 5:15 PM in response to John Catsimatidis: Tough Guy For Tough Times

Dittoburg, I'll continue our polite discussion. It's not easy getting this data on the fly but I'll provide some links below. As you may know, whenever a tax is not collected by the government, the foregone taxes are treated as expenditures. The two expenditures, foregone mortgage taxes and spending on housing assistance programs for the poor renters can be compared "apples to apples."

What originally brought my attention to these numbers and how public perception was so off with regards to this issue was a published study I read from the early '90s. The exact title of the volume I have in mind escapes me (but if the volume isn't packed away in my home I'd be more than happy to provide the title if you are interested).

Googling around just now, and granting that these are raw data only, in 2005 the value of the mortgage interest tax deduction was $69 billion. Add in the amount of other residential tax breaks and the figure is closer to $150 billion annually. Conversely, from the US 2009 HUD budget, the entire HUD budget for all housing programs for renters (including seniors, disabled, veterans, etc.)is $47 billion.

You also raise the issue of who benefits from the deduction, and you are right, the bulk of the benefit goes to small segment of the population (80% of the benefit goes to the top 20% in some estimates I've seen). This distribution has no bearing on how much is spent on each constituency.

All this to say, no hyperbole here. The fact that you find it hard to believe is not surprising. One group of beneficiaries and their allies is weak, the other, less so.

A link to the HUD budget:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/pdf/budget/hud.pdf

A link to the article where I got the $69 billion figure:
http://www.slate.com/id/2130017/

See also:
http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/311193_IssuesOptions_12.pdf

Posted by: brine deez at July 17, 2008 3:43 PM in response to John Catsimatidis: Tough Guy For Tough Times

"Montrose Morris: Affordable housing is by definition housing financed by the government. It seems you don't believe in property rights and expect other people to give you the good life for free. Why don't you go to the farmer and tell him to sell you grain and vegetables for a lower price? Or maybe even go to the bank and ask them to forgive your debt?"

Here's one for you poly, "all" housing is financed by government. The value of the mortgage interest deduction enjoyed by so many hard working Americans dwarfs by magnitudes of hundreds of billions the amount spent on all public housing and subsidies. That doesn't even account for public money used by developers. It's such standard operating procedure that the $400 section 8 voucher is pilloried while billions of $$$ of middle and upper class housing subsidies are treated as matters of right and principal. I have no problem with the deduction per se, but I'm not going to relable it as something other than what it is - a handout.

You seem to have a selective interpretation of free market; farming and banking are fueled by federal, not private, largesse. From day one in our country we've had a mixed economy but for people like you apparently it's myth busting to hear it.

As for your transparent incendiary for this discussion, about starting a fund to send people back to where you imagine they're from. I guess there are some causes for which you'll abandon your no handout principles, huh? Newsflash, folks who've been grinding for the poor and to be heard among the powerful have heard that one before. I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed.

Posted by: brine deez at July 17, 2008 1:23 PM in response to John Catsimatidis: Tough Guy For Tough Times

I'd go for Jay street if I had a brood. Since I don't I'm with 70 Wash (but at reduced $$$)

Posted by: brine deez at July 14, 2008 1:27 PM in response to Condos of the Day: Head-to-Head in Dumbo

The staff architects United Homes would be embarrassed by these.

Posted by: brine deez at July 11, 2008 11:14 AM in response to Bracing For The Worst on South Portland Avenue

-Brine,

Thanks for your comments.

There is only one 1 bedroom apartment that is adequete space (706sf) the rest are 600sf.

This still might be too small for three people and no guarantee that it will available.

I did speak to the agent at Halstead who was helpful and honest. He also said that we can sell the apartment as soon as we like.

Agree that the amenities look very nice, but not sure if they are necessary for us. I would prefer space and location.

Still, part of me is tempted as it is a discounted price (albeit a small one). I think we might pursue further in order to make up our minds 100%.

Thanks to everyone who commented and please leave any other thoughts you can.

Dan

Posted by: Dan76 at July 18, 2008 2:05 PM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

One bedroom at 600 s.f?? That's a large studio. How is it that the size of the average American house has increased some 40% in the last 20 years and the size of the average apartment in NY has decreased by almost the same amount AND storage is replaced with extra bathrooms and w/d. (I like both, don't get me wrong, but isn't there a way to have both).

Re the resales: the income restriction is one point to consider, but there may also be a penalty (usually fairly modest) if you "have" to sell. Check the prospectus. You should also note how long after the closing date they provide for you that they STILL can close without penalty. It can be fairly long and your money is tied up during that time. It's only after that point that you can break a contract without losing deposit.

Also to consider: by the time the building is finished, your 1.5 year old may be a 2.5 or 3 year old who probably needs a little room of her own. (Rather mommy and daddy need a room of their own, baby stuff doesn't need to take over the remaining space). Good luck!

Posted by: Minmin at July 18, 2008 4:52 PM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

600sf would be HUGE for a studio.

Most are in the 300-500 range.

600sf is pretty standard for a 1 bedroom. 750sf is considered spacious.

The average American home size is most likely on the decline for the coming years.

Posted by: 11217 at July 18, 2008 6:20 PM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

Hey Dan, let's keep in touch. I also just "won" the lottery and am wondering what to do. Did the Halstead agent mention how many people are waiting in line to buy these apartments? I'm a single woman, so I have less of a problem with the space issue but I still find the liquidity issue a bit hard to swallow.

Posted by: fishie at July 19, 2008 12:35 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

Hi Dan, My husband and I are in.
We are currently in contract for a 2 bed/2 bath lottery apartment at the Toren. We won too.
Also, to clarify a few things for you. The affordable units are IDENTICAL to the market value units: identical in quality and construction-including all fixtures (sinks, tub, faucets, etc). The only difference is that your appliances will be in the elite stainless steel category instead of the pro line. After reviewing the offering plan, I actually went online and compared all of the appliances (fyi, each unit includes the washer/dryer) which was fun and informative. The only restriction with the Toren is that you can only sell to someone who falls within the income restricion. I've crunched my numbers to death, and my husband and I decided that we could definately make a good chunk of money if we play our cards right (again, we won a 2 bed so our deal is probably better). I also spent a great deal of time speaking with my lawyer (happy to recommend her if you need someone) evaluating the situation and she was super helpful and advised us to move forward. Of course, this is only a decision you guys can make. We also have a 1.5 year old daughter (would love to have lots of parents in the Toren! Pool dates, babysitting exchange!) so I understand the equation is more complicated.
My advice is to proceed. Get approved and then get your Offering Plan and have a lawyer check it out. Until you enter into contract and send in a check, you can pull out. Keep in mind too that you can always sell (never with a penalty)-you are not trapped which was a big plus for us.

Anyway, feel free to contact me personally if you want

Posted by: leiteas at July 20, 2008 10:53 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

Here is my email: leiteashleigh@hotmail.com

Posted by: leiteas at July 20, 2008 10:55 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

Dan you can also get in touch with me at biggiefish@hotmail.com

Posted by: fishie at July 21, 2008 12:02 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

The Toren "affordable" apartments are a scam. You get what you pay for. As you said, they're barely cheaper than the market ones, have worse fixtures, and are only a couple floors above Flatbush Extension -- serious noise! I'd pass.

Posted by: zinka at July 21, 2008 12:52 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

i'm also a lottery winner and i'm surprised they still have the affordable units available. i had heard that all 42 affordable units have been spoken for. at the moment, according to streeteasy.com, there are 62 units in contract for the market rate units. with the affordable units the building is 43% sold/in-contract.

for those who are in contract at the toren, there is a google group set up. go to http://groups.google.com/group/toren to get approved. this may be a good source to get more info from another people who are in contract.

Posted by: 11205waverly at July 21, 2008 11:58 AM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren

nother "winner" here. I recently received (by accident), a letter from Halstead saying I needed to respond, etc. It's by accident b/c I'm already in contract. The Halstead guys are nice but slightly sloppy. Anyway, the letter showed what units were available - only studios and ones. None seemed appropriate for a family. I think the studios are going to be a tough sell since they aren't outrageously cheap.

My only (major) gripes with the design of these units, particularly for the smaller ones is lack of closets. Some of the studios have one closet! If the building had storage space it would be acceptable but since it doesn't the layouts take a hit in my opinion.

On a different note, don't know about you guys but I'm not too concerned about noise (for some reason). A) this NY and you get used to it, and B) I have faith this is being constructed with noise in mind.

thanks for the tip about the google group.

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at July 21, 2008 12:26 PM in response to "Winning" HPD Lottery for the Toren