Party wall soundproofing

Brooklyn already has a Death Star!

http://bedstuybanana.blogspot.com/2008/01/our-local-hospital-death-star.html

Posted by: Ibis at May 1, 2008 12:32 PM in response to Navy Yard Watch: SurroundArt Building Rising

Thanks 2:51, that's very similar to what I'm planning. I agree that the space between the party wall and the new wall is probably the most important aspect. What cotton soundproofing insulation did you use, and where did you get it? Are you happy with the results?

Posted by: Ibis at May 1, 2008 3:01 PM in response to Party wall soundproofing

It is plaster applied directly on brick (no lath). The plaster has no visible cracks. The two houses are identical and were probably built at the same time. I suspect that the brick party wall was poorly built and may have some crack or holes. Another interesting observation: When I'm in the cellar, I can hear our neighbors washer and dryer quite well, and recently I realized that the noise is coming through one of the joist pocket in the brick wall just above the foundation.

The house on the other side is a different house, and we hear absolutely nothing through that other party wall.

Thanks for the reponse Johnife, and if you have any suggestion on how we could investigate and fix this, please let me know.

Posted by: Ibis at May 1, 2008 3:16 PM in response to Party wall soundproofing

Thanks Jonhife, you confirmed what I was thinking about the way the houses were built. And yes, I was thinking that the party wall is probably not fireproof since I realized that there are holes in the wall at the joists.

These are 3 story brick houses in Bed-Stuy, build in 1899 according to city records.

Is this common in Brooklyn?

Posted by: Ibis at May 1, 2008 4:15 PM in response to Party wall soundproofing

Rick, can you comment on Quietrock 525 (5/8") vs. 510 (1/2"). There is a significant price difference, but is there is a significant performance difference?

Posted by: Ibis at May 6, 2008 11:03 AM in response to soundboard vs. furring (firring) stips for ceiling

6:52 - I don't know what Quietrock you tested, they have multiple kinds. But the ones that most people seem to be using (510, 516, 525) don't contain any metal, they are made of a layer of viscoelastic polymer between two layers of gypsum. I have not tried it yet, but according to their website, it is cut and installed the same way as regular drywall. It's slightly heavier than regular drywall, but the principle behind Quietrock is not an increased mass or a sheet of metal. The sound is absorbed by the viscoelastic material in the center. My understanding it that it's the same principle as using green glue between two sheets of regular drywall.

Posted by: Ibis at May 7, 2008 9:22 AM in response to soundboard vs. furring (firring) stips for ceiling

I had this done last year by Custom Metal Products and they did a great job. They did other things at the same time: build a new ladder to the roof hatch, fixed the roof hatch, and build a vent in my cellar door. Total was $750. Their shop is located in bed-stuy and they seem to be doing a lot of work on historical houses. They have a website, you can find them easily with a google search.

Posted by: Ibis at June 9, 2008 7:00 PM in response to need to get an AC cage/box installed

You should be ok. You need to keep an emergency fund for things that you didn't mention and may break, like water or sewer main. Maintaining an old house, even a small one family house, is expensive. I know it may seem scary, but if you compare to what you are currently spending on your coop, it will probably not be significantly more expensive, and maybe even less. And it will be very satysfying that you are the one deciding how the money is spent and the building is yours.

Posted by: Ibis at June 9, 2008 7:16 PM in response to first time home buyer

I believe what curiositykilledthecat said is true. At least that's exactly what my attorney told me when I bought my house. I got the $500 "discount", and apparently this is what most sellers decide to do. And I would do the same thing if I was selling.

I think there could be some exceptional situations in which you would still have some recourse. Like if the house collapsed two weeks after closing due to a structural issue known to the seller. I don't think the seller would get away with that. But water in the basement after a heavy rain storm is not at all unusual in Brooklyn houses.

Posted by: Ibis at June 15, 2008 10:24 PM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

Save a lot of money and time: purchase a thru-the-wall model and sleeve for it. This will cost more than window mounted unit but NOT $750! Mount this unit on the window sill. All exhaust will be from the rear and to the outdoors. Cut a white styrofoam batt (get it from the packing materials) to fill in open spaces. Much better with out scarring the windows and the unit goes when you go.

Posted by: guest at June 10, 2008 12:57 PM in response to need to get an AC cage/box installed

Oh, and I meant to say your maintenance also covers insurance on the building, which is expensive. (Your coop insurance is basically renters insurance - it covers your stuff only, and any fixtures (like kitchen cabinets) that have been added since conversion to coop - if you were smart enough to add that coverage when you bought insurance, if you even have it - many coop owners don't.) In any event, that coop coverage, whatever you have, is damn cheap compared to what you will pay to insure your new home from fire, etc.

Posted by: guest at June 11, 2008 11:41 AM in response to first time home buyer

By the same token, no buyer in his right mind would purchase a property from a seller who refused to sign a PCD. Even though I bought this place before 2002, my attorney insisted on a notarized disclosure statement from the seller.

The seller has the option to enter "UNKN" in most of the PCD's defect categories if he honestly doesn't know, for instance, if there's a foundation problem. So the only reason for the seller to refuse to sign a PCD is because he DOES know there's a defect he doesn't want the buyer to know about.

Posted by: Steve at June 15, 2008 10:50 PM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

And where was your pre-sale inspection engineer in all of this? There should have been signs of earlier flooding you and/or him could pick up.

I'd ask that question if I were the seller.

Posted by: denton at June 15, 2008 10:54 PM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

Thank you all for your help. I am a first time homeowner and honestly I find my ignorance a little embarrassing. I did receive a $500 check at closing which I accepted. My lawyer did not really do an adequate job of explaining what exactly I was accepting. I am no fool. I know that there will inherently be issues with a 100 year old house. I understand that more than likely you can expect some leakage in basements, especially during periods of extreme storms. But what is normal? In my case, this was not a small amount of water. I would estimate it in the range of 30 gallons. Is that normal or exceptional in terms of degree? I did hire an independent inspector before I entered into contract. He seemed to be very knowledgeable and competent, and I would have classified the experience as positive. He however, found no evidence, or suggested that there could be, this amount of leakage. If this leakage is in fact an accepted inevitability, how do you live with it? I rent the three bedroom on the second floor, so the finished basement makes up a sizable portion of my living space. I know their is a separate thread on how exactly to fix these leaks, but how expensive is it? I am a furniture collector who plans to put several very expensive pieces in the space. Would I be better off just having the furniture insured?

Posted by: deepBTUz at June 15, 2008 11:43 PM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

I don't think you mean 30 gallons, that's a drip, not a flood...maybe 300 gallons?

Search in archives here for several posts on this subject. You have to find the source of the water, walls/foundation/etc. There are remedies ranging from a foundation drain (lots of thousands), sump pump, unclogging a drain, waterproofing etc.

Talk to a good waterproofing contractor.

If there's enough ceiling height a false floor with a waterproof membrane under and a sump pump may be the cheapest solution. Won't take care of dampness, though, which may affect the furniture.

Posted by: cmu at June 16, 2008 8:42 AM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

Your ignorance isn't a little embarrassing at all. It's part of the learning process!

One thing though - it might have nothing to do with waterproofing. It could be a drainage issue. Still solvable. Heavy rain water came into my finished basement through a poorly set-up (and hidden) drain. Once found, easy to solve.

I used Sessa Plumbing after a bunch smaller firms came through with either no clue or bad advice. Contractor told me i was "definitely water seeping in from my (then) unfinished back yard" and that I needed to put in a patio. Which I did. And of course it didn't make a bit of difference. Looks nice tho.

One plumber told me there was nothing that could be done and charged me $95 for the service call. And like an idiot I paid it.

That was my learning experience ;-)

Posted by: Johnny at June 16, 2008 9:52 AM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

Honestly this is very normal. I was pretty angry at our sellers after this happened to us, but drainage in Brooklyn is a real problem. Flat brownstone roofs and wide cement expanses create an amazing amount of runoff.

Our back basement takes in water during massive early summer storms like we're having these weeks. Go down there when it starts raining a lot and watch what happens. This will help you pinpoint if it's seepage, runoff, a slow drain or whatever.

We learned that the half of our backyard that was paved with cement was mostly pitched towards a drain near the house that can't keep up with the water. To solve it we have begun removing the cement where we can, and plan on pitching the rest away from the house toward our newly planted lawn and covered french drain. Removing cement helped. Not sure about the rest. If nothing else works, we're planning on looking into a sump pump.

Good luck.

Posted by: corolla at June 16, 2008 11:09 AM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

An engineer/home inspector only has a couple of hours to find problems that the PO may have known about for 20 or 30 years. When the house is opened for buyer inspection you have to assume that some serious issues are going to be intentionally obscured. For instance, a roof leak can be masked with a coat of primer and paint and old termite damage in the floor can be hidden with a discretely placed rug. Both were done here and were exposed by that disclosure statement. I got credits for both at closing.

I have to disagree with the comment that a seller would be nuts to sign a PCD. Whether it's caveat emptor or not, that isn't going to stop a pissed off buyer from suing a seller who dumped him with an expensive problem. If a seller knows the house is in good shape, that PCD will go a long way towards avoiding expensive litigation over something he didn't know about. Even if there ARE problems it gets it on the record that the buyer knew about them before closing.

Posted by: Steve at June 16, 2008 11:33 AM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller

Check your roof gutters and make sure the runoff is going down into the storm sewer not dumping into the back of the house.

Make sure the drywell drain in the cement in back is not covered up with leaves or clogged. Sometimes it's as simple as clearing away leaves. Or sometimes some dummy covers the drain with cement at some point.

Check the grade of the cement at the back of the house. If it's not graded correctly get it redone. It should send water away from the house and send the runoff into a drywell drain.

Check the drywell right outside the back door under the hatch. If it's shallow and useless and all full of mud (most are) and if the hatch is old or cement around it is letting in water, then water will come in under your door. We plumbed that drain to put the water into the sewer, instead of leaving it as a drywell. Also we took steps to reduce water entering the hatch.

Good luck! 30 gallons is not bad at all. I bet you just have a small problem with one of the things I mentioned, and it won't be a big deal to fix.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:04 PM in response to Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller