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November 20, 2009
severe dammage by tenants
I need a bit of help. The 3rd floor tenants are rent controlled.They rigged up a shower back in the past with out the consent of the previous landlord. I asked them to put up a shower curtain they did not The water damage ran all the way down to the basement causing the repair of joist @ 14,000. We,incidentally thought the leak was from a toilet that the previous landlord...however it was from their rigged up shower. Appertly the leak has gotten even worse. I had closed of my kitchen cabinets when I opened one to get a glass I discovered the cabinets were filled with black Mold and the wood was totally destroyed. I am now facing having to gut my kitchen (which I don't have the money for and having to repair their bathroom and do mold containment. I frankly want them out or at least held accountable for their destruction. I figure another 10,000. bringing up the cost to 24,000. Can I do this with out a lawyer...our lawyer is fairly expensive and they are rent control. HELP!
Comments
Do not attempt this on your own. And even if your own attorney is good, though expensive, do not use him unless he is thoroughly familiar with landlord-tenant law. Go to the help desk at Kings County Housing Court and consult the attorneys there, no charge. 140 Livingston St. You will not succeed in housing court unless you follow the requirements carefully and completely: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/nyc/housing/pdfs/Landlordbooklet.pdf
Posted by: vinca at November 20, 2009 12:49 PM
I think this is exactly the kind of situation where a lawyer can really be worth the expense.
Even if you could do it without a lawyer, a lawyer will increase your chances of success and the chances that the tenants will be deemed liable for the damage.
With $24k damage already, I wouldn't screw around.
Find another lawyer if necessary, but make sure you find one who knows how to deal with this kind of stuff.
Good luck...
Posted by: northsloperenter at November 20, 2009 12:50 PM
does anyone have any experience in this can I evict them.....this is so against me being a socialist but they have destroyed so much
Posted by: meme at November 20, 2009 1:46 PM
Vinca thanks they are also not allowing us access to fix the heat and do not want to be inconvenienced by fixing the shower. I am furious
Posted by: meme at November 20, 2009 1:56 PM
Vinca thanks they also are not granting access I have their keys can I just walk in and fix itr and the radiators which need to be fixed so they get heat. I am not being a meany I just want to fix things so my renovation does not get destroyed.
Posted by: meme at November 20, 2009 2:00 PM
You always have emergency access, and this surely qualifies as one.
Posted by: cmu at November 20, 2009 2:07 PM
No, you cannot just enter their apartment unless it's an emergency. You have to give notice, and the notice has to meet exacting standards and language. All of these details will be even more important if you begin legal proceedings. The best place to start is by visiting the help desk before taking action so you begin to understand what is required, and what is permitted. If you decide to proceed with an eviction, hire an attorney from a law firm that represents landlords exclusively. That attorney might cost you more on an hourly basis, but will save you much time, money and headaches in the long-run. Start by informing yourself and by visiting the help desk.
Posted by: vinca at November 20, 2009 2:13 PM
It is virtually impossible to evict, or even take action against Rent Control.
As others have mentioned, get a lawyer familiar with RC lanlord/tenant issues.
The short answer, they can do what they want, you have no recourse. The long answer is it's a long complicated process and a competent/qualified/experienced lawyer is worth every penny.
Posted by: christopher at November 20, 2009 3:13 PM
Also take pictures of anything affected by their doings & keep a diary of your interactions & send communications via registered mail & keep copies.
Posted by: Arkady at November 20, 2009 4:07 PM
Let this be a lesson to any of you out there who are thinking of buying a buiding with RC tenants.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 20, 2009 4:43 PM
Daveinbedsty and all
Thanks for your info.This is not the first building we've bought with RC tenants. But this our first in Brooklyn with a non stabilized building..... we understood the perils of RC but this is obscene amount of damage even the old man who put his boots to warm in the microwave (with metal toes and insoles)did not cause that much harm. If i can prevent them from putting up another Garden hose shower and making it known that this is 24K worth of damaged they cost us. A friend suggested taking them to small claims. This way it would be the incident not rent control laws. There is a question about their lease. She may have been living ells were before her mother died. Does that change things?
Posted by: meme at November 20, 2009 5:43 PM
Regarding your last post.I was wondering how old these people were.
You cannot inherit a RC apartment.
Posted by: modsquad at November 20, 2009 5:51 PM
I believe the daughter had to be in residence 2 years to keep the apartment. Again, you really should speak to a lwyer to go down to housing court and get information. There are circumstances under which an rc/rs tenant can be evicted and possibly endangerment is one of them. And you do have the right to gain access to an apartment to do repairs. That should be in the lease form as well.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 20, 2009 6:12 PM
"A family member would succeed to the rights of the tenant of record upon the tenant’s permanent departure or death, provided the family member lived with such a primary resident not less than two years"
http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#8
Posted by: modsquad at November 20, 2009 6:18 PM
You have my sympathies. This sounds like a terrible amount of damage.
Posted by: mopar at November 20, 2009 6:35 PM
"this is so against me being a socialist but they have destroyed so much"
Capitalist: Former socialist with a rent-controlled tenant.
Conservative: Former liberal who got mugged.
Posted by: denton at November 20, 2009 6:36 PM
love it, Denton!
Posted by: pig three at November 20, 2009 7:33 PM
i want to know what is wrong with the tub/shower in their bathroom that prompted them to set up a "garden hose shower". (whatever that is....)
Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 20, 2009 9:15 PM
http://timsticle.com/images/fall09/hillbilly.jpg
Posted by: modsquad at November 20, 2009 9:42 PM
the house has the original bathrooms from the 1910 renovation turning the house to a 3 family dwelling. The bathtubs are small 4' claw foot with the original drains and fixtures. It was never meant to have a shower. They rigged it so they attached a garden hose to the spichet and a hose to the SIDE WALL. SO WHEN THEY SHOWER THERE IS NO WAY TO PREVENT THE WATER FROM HITTING THE WALL.
My question is can they be made financially accountable for the damage they created? If they had a security deposit which they don't ....
Can I take them to small claims court?
Posted by: meme at November 20, 2009 11:55 PM
So you mean the bathroom was unaltered for the last century?
Had you provided them with a real bathroom with a shower this wouldn't have happened. A simple showerhead isn't too much to ask for in the year 2009
Posted by: JohnHancock at November 21, 2009 12:11 AM
I doubt you can sue for damages.
You state:
"I asked them to put up a shower curtain they did not The water damage ran all the way down to the basement causing the repair of joist @ 14,000."
That's one hell of a lot of water! If you knew the water was causing a problem then you are responsible for mitigating damage, not just sitting there wringing your hands. You need to step up and be a landlord.
Case dismissed.
Posted by: modsquad at November 21, 2009 1:06 AM
Exactly which branch of socialism believes that tenants should be grateful to bathe from buckets? For $1,000, more or less, depending on fixtures, you could have installed fully-functioning shower fixtures. (See, for example: http://www.signaturehardware.com/product463 ) For a little more, you could have installed modern tubs. Now you're (allegedly) facing a $14,000-$24,000 repair, but still blaming your tenants. I regret that I provided a link to the "Landlord's Guide" so quickly, when it's your tenants who really need the help. Hope they're reading along; the free help desk at 140 Livingston is there for them, too.
LANDLORD'S DUTY OF REPAIR: Landlords of buildings with three or more apartments must keep the apartments and the buildings' public areas in "good repair." Landlords are required to maintain electrical, plumbing, sanitary, heating, and ventilating systems in good and safe working order. Landlords must also keep in good working order appliances they install, such as refrigerators and stoves. Landlords also have a legal duty to keep every part of a multiple dwelling clean and free of vermin, dirt, garbage or other offensive material. Tenants should bring complaints to the attention of their local housing officials. (Multiple Dwelling Law Sec. 78; 80; Multiple Residence Law Sec. 174)
Posted by: vinca at November 21, 2009 3:10 AM
presumably you knew about the shower rig in this apartment before you purchased the building from previous owners, correct? Why would you (or the previous owner for that matter) *not* install a proper shower assembly as someone previously mentioned?
Vinca, I don't know the laws but can the RC tenants rightfully refuse that upgrade? (bc that cost could be potentially be added to their rent)
By asking them to simply put a shower curtain up in my opinion sends a message that you "approved" their makeshift set up instead of correcting it properly.
"the house has the original bathrooms from the 1910 renovation turning the house to a 3 family dwelling. The bathtubs are small 4' claw foot with the original drains and fixtures. It was never meant to have a shower"
So does this mean that YOUR apartment has no shower either?
Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 21, 2009 4:05 AM
One more question, why are they refusing access to fix the heat? Come February they could be in there using space heaters or the stove and you DON'T want that to happen.
Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 21, 2009 4:31 AM
It seems like the cause of the damage is the owner's (or, possibly, the previous owner's) not installing a simple D-ring shower curtain rod to hold three curtains, one against the wall. That, plus a simple add-on "telephone'" shower attachment might have cost as much as $100. It's the cheap man who ends up spending the most money.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 21, 2009 8:35 AM
Despite what I said earlier, I have to agree with the later posts after we discovered the "bathroom situation." It's your fault for not having spent a little money renovating the bathroom into a decent one with a normal shower.
Penny wise & pound foolish.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 21, 2009 12:12 PM
BOD: Defective equipment can be replaced at owner’s expense; replaced with used or reconditioned equipment for which there is no entitlement to increase; or replaced with new, for which owner *may* be entitled to increase, subject to a number of variables. Because rent adjustment terms are complex and often hard to sort out (for both landlord and tenant); because approved increases apply on a permanent basis; and because many landlords and tenants are invested in an adversarial relationship, many LL’s AND rent-regulated tenants resist repairs and upgrades. None of that excuses the LL’s obligation to maintain existing equipment, services and premises in good repair. Some of these issues are addressed in this DHCR fact sheet: http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/dhcr/dhcr26.html
Posted by: vinca at November 21, 2009 12:27 PM
to all I will amke this clear
1) they installed the shower in the 70's. 2 landlords before me.
2)I had offered to fix their bathroom a year ago but had asked them to put up the shower curtain everything could be dried and the repairs could be done easily.
3) they did not wish to give me access to fix the heat the Plumber has been by 4 times . One time they screamed st him and refused him access.
4)The water the leak we thought was coming from their toilet that the previous landlord had installed wrong.
5) they are refusing to take ut their airconditioner that leakes out a great deal of heat causing the people in the apt below them to be cold.
All I asked was idea to deal with the issue.
We inherited the building's conditions we are there less than 2 years and have only lived there one year. we are still renovating. HERE ARE THE QUESTIONS:
Can they be evicted for installing a plumbing fixture on their own ?
Can they be held accountable for the dammage their "plumbing " caused?
We are meeting the plumber tomorrow and if they do not wish to give us access to fix the heat and water then we will contact our lawyer and enter with my keys I am sorry but no one would be saying poor tenants if they had built a fire in the middle of the room.
Posted by: meme at November 23, 2009 10:58 PM
also they bathrooms are very small because the house is narrow and the design from 1920 put the bathrooms in a weird place and had to be very small hence the 4 foot tubs...... yes we had the same thing before the total gut.
Posted by: meme at November 23, 2009 11:07 PM
Can they be evicted for installing a plumbing fixture on their own ?
No, they can be made to cure. If they insist on keeping their hose as is then they could be evicted.
Can they be held accountable for the dammage their "plumbing " caused?
The way you describe it, I doubt it. You are required to mitigate the damage. You can't simply say that you were "surprised" one day to find floor joists completely rotted out.
If they built a fire in the middle of the room you could probably enter, bring your lawyer, use him to put out the fire.
Posted by: modsquad at November 24, 2009 1:38 AM
modsquad thanks i am going to fix everything they have destroyed/ I am taking out their shower tomorrow and handing them a hand held which i afford them last week.If not I will take them to court.I am taking the video cam to document the process.
Posted by: meme at November 24, 2009 1:50 AM
modsquad thanks i am going to fix everything they have destroyed/ I am taking out their shower tomorrow and handing them a hand held which i afford them last week.If not I will take them to court.I am taking the video cam to document the process. fixing the stuff was never an issue havung access and having a tenant that will not destroy thing is more the issue
Posted by: meme at November 24, 2009 1:51 AM
meme- so sorry for the mess in your place. You should be used to the whole gamut of responses from b'stoner folk. We are a tough crowd, but people like vinca do have excellent information. I wold ask your lawyer if they can be evicted for allowing the damage to get to this point because rotted joists endanger everyone. You probably should talk to an architect about that to be sure. Good luck!
Posted by: bxgrl at November 24, 2009 11:44 AM
I am so nice she thanked me twice ;)
Posted by: modsquad at November 24, 2009 12:58 PM
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