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November 17, 2009
DOB Audit
Hi All,
We were in the process of getting our COO. (new construction) We passed final construction inspection , plumbing, etc. For the past few months we were in the proccess of filing for our COO. Low and behold we get a stop work order (even though the house is done). They audited the plans and have a few objections on the plans. My specific question is after we fix the objections on the plans, will there be a re-inspection of the house? The house already gained a FINAL construction signoff. Any help appreciated.
Tx,
Rog
Comments
That's a question only dob can answer, and it might depend on the nature of the comments and the nature of the remedy(s). What brought on the audit? Was there a complaint? Is the examiner for the audit the same as the original plan examiner? And how extensive are the comments? These audits can come out of nowhere, and can expose faults in the original plan examination, and you really don't have an alternative except to respond to the comments and comply. I'll be interested to know more, and how it works out.
Posted by: raphael9 at November 17, 2009 5:42 PM
To remove the stop work order you will need to schedule an inspection of the property with the city. Ed Kopel Architects
Posted by: edkopel at November 17, 2009 5:45 PM
Thanks for your responses.
1) There was a complaint and that brought on the stop order/audit. The examiner is not the same as on the original plan. 5 of the objections are floor-area calculations, front yard planting, compliance with porches (nothing should be underneath).
2) This is a plan audit. So when the plans are accepted, what do they have to inspect at the site?
3) I am the owner and so very confused. The architect doesn't seem to care too much as he already got almost all of his money.
What I'm trying to say in a nutshell is we already had final construction inspection, so after we correct the plans, would they have to comeback and reinspect or can we just then file for COO.
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 17, 2009 6:00 PM
Thanks for your responses.
1) There was a complaint and that brought on the stop order/audit. The examiner is not the same as on the original plan. 5 of the objections are floor-area calculations, front yard planting, compliance with porches (nothing should be underneath).
2) This is a plan audit. So when the plans are accepted, what do they have to inspect at the site?
3) I am the owner and so very confused. The architect doesn't seem to care too much as he already got almost all of his money.
What I'm trying to say in a nutshell is we already had final construction inspection, so after we correct the plans, would they have to comeback and reinspect or can we just then file for COO.
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 17, 2009 6:02 PM
Your architect will have to deal with the far calculations, and you should go with him/her to the audit appointment. I'm assuming you are within the far, and can prove it. Be forewarned that plan examiners do get it wrong sometimes, so hopefully your architect used the most conservative approach.
Are your porches in compliance? I'm assuming you simply have to prove that they are, and that you have provisions for planting as required.
If there is anything you have to do to your architect will have to file a paa (post approval amendment) and show revised drawings that reflect the modifications. If they are not major revisions they may not have to get reinspected. If they don't include plumbing, it wouldn't affect your plumbing inspection. When you are at the audit meeting(s) you can ask these questions in context.
Be prepared to pay the architect for the time it takes to do all this, it's part of the process. When the audit is approved, and the new drawings are accepted, you will need a letter from the plan examiner, and that will allow you to get the stop work order lifted, and it shouldn't require an inspection. You walk down the hall with all your docs, and with the letter, and the construction dept. lifts the swo. Any inspections would come after the required work is completed.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting your architect on board with this, and with you being present on all trips to dob at this point as an owner has a different relationship and can push the process slightly. The audit alone can easily take a month.
Posted by: raphael9 at November 17, 2009 6:18 PM
Thanks so much raphael9. I am at the point of just getting rid of the architect and hiring another to finish the job. Do you think this is a good idea. Also you seem to know alot about the dob process. Are you an architect?
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 17, 2009 6:26 PM
I'm not an architect, but I've been through the audit process as an owner. It could be tricky replacing your architect at this stage, and more expensive.
Are you within the far for the zoning? That is the only thing you mentioned that seems of great concern. If your architect used a predominantly built up definition for instance, are you sure it applies to your zoning designation, and/or does your far work without it? Sometimes they are just looking for more detail that was lacking in the original plans, or it may be there and they missed it.
Posted by: raphael9 at November 17, 2009 6:40 PM
Thanks so much for your insight Raphael9.
here are the objections exactly....can you give your opinion.
Tx,
Roger
1) establish 'base plane' as per xxx
2) lowest level indicated on drawings and paperwork as 'cellar' is a basement as per xxx. Provide diagram for compliance
3) revise floor area calculations to include
'basement' area for compliance
4) mechanical room as shown deducted from floor area is not dedicated to mechanical equipment and is not 'reasonable for its intended use'. Deduction shown at what was indicated as 'cellar' level which is not floor area. All mechanical deductions at all levels to be verified. Third floor indicates deductions, but mechanical room is shown. Revise zoning calculations
5) indicate compliance with required front yard planting in that the area of the zoning lot between street line and street wall to be planted
6) Lowest level 'cellar/basement' rear portion not a permitted obstruction in rear yard.
7)demonstrate compliance with porches as permitted projection into yards in that ' there shall be no useable building or storage space underneath'
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 17, 2009 7:05 PM
if this job was "self certified", all alt 1's are being audited now in brooklyn, and random alt 2's. my sixty second take;
1. base plane is just a dimensional thing for the height of the building, easy fix unless the building is too tall
2. if the cellar is a basement and not being included in the far calcs, then you may run out of far. I dont know how you would confuse a basement with a cellar so maybe its just a semantic thing for the plans. Basements are habitable and basically 50% of their height is above the ground level and you need windows obviously.
3. see note 2.
4. if you are getting additional floor area from a mechanical room deduction - its got to be a mechanical room or full of air conditioning equipment for instance.
5. you have to have a planting area in your front yard - not a big deal.
6. if this is a new addition in the rear yard - there are setbacks and the new area has to work with the far calcs. if it was there and you cant proove it was legally filed, then there is a problem. im dealing with this now on a project and they want to cut 3' off a rear yard addition (mud room) and we have approved dob plans from 1981..........
7. you might be hooped on this one if you have a porch over a rear yard addition or enclosed space
Replacing the architect isnt an option in my opinion or a much more horrible option in terms of headache, expense and time. I agree with the other posters you need the architect to be on board to work through this stuff.
Good luck
-jp
Posted by: jp2 at November 17, 2009 7:56 PM
replacing the architect is a really, really bad idea..the new guy will have a different take on the situation (especially if the first architect was "creative" on the far calcs).nd you could end up tearing the place apart again...suck it up and pay the inevitable upcharges for your current architect to fix this
Posted by: eman1234 at November 17, 2009 8:27 PM
But how do I get the architect to make this his priority. Some say lure him with $$$ and he will. Others say get a lawyer to scare him into doing the right thing? I am definitely going with him to the auditing appointment. This has to be solved somehow.
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 17, 2009 9:27 PM
pay him a per diem rate for additional work
Posted by: eman1234 at November 17, 2009 10:00 PM
or create a website thisarchitectsucks.com and see if that works as leverage (humor?)
Posted by: jp2 at November 17, 2009 10:26 PM
Do you think I have a case if I talk to the big cheese. Because everything was signed off by dob including final construction inspection, plumbing (every sign off you could think of). The permit expired about a few months ago and we were in the process of applying for the COO. The house is 100% complete and now they are doing an audit. You think I have a case if I go and talk to him?
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 18, 2009 7:58 AM
if the plans were flawed from the beginning and those flaws were not exposed until now, the fact that you have had and passed inspections is meaningless
Posted by: jp2 at November 18, 2009 8:10 AM
roger - i hope this isn't as problematic as it sounds, and jp2 covered this pretty well. hopefully your architect did the proper calculations regarding the base plane and the far. the base plane seems simple, but if there is a slope to the site there are variations, and the best thing is to have done a new elevation survey as that proves it. in any case, the calculations for height should be in the plans that were approved - are they in the elevation drawings?
I don't like the sound of the comments regarding the basement or cellar. what does your original c of o say? It is clear that they are looking to see whether you are overbuilt.
On mechanical deductions - there is a formula - so many sq ft for the 1st fl, 2nd fl, 3rd fl, etc. and it isn't a large number.
I don't know anything about the porch issues, jp knows much better.
You will get nothing from your architect by threats, you will need to create the relationship you need to get this done. I guess it brings up the question as to whether the architect did the proper calcs to begin with, and there could be some issues there. If you get lawyers involved with any of this at this point in time it will guarantee you won't get anywhere. There might be some liability issues down the road, but that is a separate thing entirely.
Please keep us posted and good luck..
Posted by: raphael9 at November 18, 2009 2:46 PM
The objections on FAR are potentially problematic...if your architect maxed out the allowable FAR and made some square footage disappear by calling the basement a cellar, and by calling too much area 'mechanical', then you're going to have a real headache on your hands.
I hope this isn't the case.
Your architect really shouldn't be charging you to fix his own mistakes.
I agree w/ the suggestion that you attend the meetings w/ the plan examiner as things move forward...you want to see first hand how things are going, not be getting second hand accounts.
Posted by: jcarch at November 18, 2009 3:02 PM
The appt is tuesday and today we had a conference call with the surveyor to make modifications to the survey to distinguish the cellar from the basement. The cellar is actually droped a few inches below basement level. So we have an apartment at the 'basement' level and then the cellar is dropped down like 8 inches.....
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 19, 2009 11:15 AM
Do you and architect feel you are in bounds with regards to the various comments?
Posted by: raphael9 at November 19, 2009 11:59 AM
Yes we do, this was not a self-cert job. When the architect drew up the plans initally, he had to meet with the examiner about 5 times before the plans were approved. Even though I hate him wholeheartly, we are not out of bounds on any of the issues. He was not trying to hide anything, because he had to meet with the examiner every time to get it approved. Also, the inspector came and looked at all the mechnical spaces and was very in tune that what was on the plan, had to be exactly what was built. We had construction inspection 4 times and no time he asked about the mechnical rooms...
Posted by: cheetat1 at November 19, 2009 2:09 PM
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