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November 5, 2009
Contractors & Chauvinism
Chauvinism is bad for business.
The second largest group to purchase homes, after married couples,are single women. On my block alone at least a third of the homeowners are single women. BTW this is the group that by and large started CHNA which spearheaded the Landmarking of Crown Heights North...yes the core group (the Board) was mainly women.
While it may seem archaic to post on gender inequality the fact remains that in spite of our buying power many contractors/building supply vendors make inappropriate remarks and behave in offensive ways that frankly will continue to loose them business, at least mine.
Todays's event prompted this post.
During a transaction at the electrical supply store on Rogers and Licoln Place in response to my question on price, the proprietor made a comment about women ,trying to be jokey I guess.
THen his assistant said: "Want me to beat her?"and chuckled.
I could hardly believe it.
"Excuse me...what did you say?"
"oh...maybe I should get my whip...ha ha"
"THis is not amusing...joking about violence against women is not funny....it's offensive and you are out of line"
He got very tense, stopped laughing and the owner stepped in and apologized, then the staff member who said it apologized ...
In the past weeks while this current renovation has been underway some of the comments made by folks interviewed:
"Don't need to worry your pretty little head about that" (not hired)
"You look so delicate"(not hired)
"Oh you seem like you have a brain and know what your are talking about" (lol NOT HIRED this guy had the thickest Bensonhurst accent imaginable)
"linda...sweetheart"(not hired)
One friend shared that a contractor actually made a physical pass at her while she interviewed him for roof replacement...this woman owns a couple of apartment BUILDINGS plus her own brownstone...she was mortified and he was not hired.
This is not everyone but the lack of awareness is common enough amongst contractors'& vendors' and prompted this post.
Comments
you are being way too sensitive...within the construction trades , workers are constantly teasing each other with homophobic and misogynistic jibes... it is not anything personal, just a culture of teasing each other, in a what appears to be from a naive point of view, a meanspirited or bigoted approach...it is humor..do not take it personally.. i am an atypical contractor, and when i started in this business 25 years ago, used to think that the spanish guys were calling me an american, i.e. gringo, when they said "maricon" (faggot)...get over it and stop being so thin skinned
Posted by: eman1234 at November 5, 2009 10:19 PM
you are being way too illiterate or defensive.
why don't you re-read the post? so
Posted by: argentina at November 5, 2009 10:26 PM
again..the woman who had a pass made at her was justified in thinking the guy was a creep.. but you going to a supply house and objecting to their culture is offensive on your part
Posted by: eman1234 at November 5, 2009 10:30 PM
You have proved my point.
This and your initial post are silly. You speak of people you worked with so you were not a client. Yes you can treat anyone as you like but the point is that as clients we choose who will get our business and who will not. Respectful behavior is part of it. Why you think it is "okay" to offend a client is your absurd perogative.
Posted by: argentina at November 5, 2009 10:41 PM
let me clarify.. a contractor has to respect your values when he comes into your home... conversely, you should respect the values of the supply house when you go into their place of business, no matter how foreign it seems to you
Posted by: eman1234 at November 5, 2009 10:41 PM
Threatenning to beat me with a whip when I ask about the price is a "value" I have to respect?
LOL
Posted by: argentina at November 5, 2009 10:44 PM
the guy was a silly schmuck..do you really think that he was being serious or just trying to lighten up his intensely boring life behind the counter in a supply house
Posted by: eman1234 at November 5, 2009 10:49 PM
I have been pleasantly surprised to find the vast majority of people I deal with treat both me and my husband with respect. Everyone has been great.
I am starting to realize that most contractors and subs deal mainly with women and see this as the norm.
If I remember correctly, one of our electricians said it's usually the women who do home renovations. My husband took an NHS class in hiring subs, and the teacher said it's a shame more men don't get involved because in his opinion workmen more often try to take advantage of women.
We were both charmed and amused when the boiler people told me to consult with my husband before giving them a final decision about the installation, and sent us the bill in his name, since they had spoken only with me and my husband knows even less about boilers than I do (and I know nothing). But it was sweet of them. My favorite new words are "let me check with my husband first" because it gives me a little time to think.
Posted by: mopar at November 5, 2009 11:19 PM
eman, you are being too defensive. I don't think it is right you were called a maricon and Argentina has a point. Nothing changes unless it is brought to attention.
Posted by: Schultz at November 5, 2009 11:21 PM
Our main guy has been teasing my husband, "Why are you so quiet? Why don't you say anything?" but then also was joking around that I don't know how to do demo, and my husband does.
Posted by: mopar at November 5, 2009 11:30 PM
I design and build furniture for fun. When I first began going to the Home Depot on Hamilton Ave., the male workers were shocked and openly doubtful of my ability to wield a power tool or actually build an item of furniture. They were clearly hesitant to sell me tools or wood. My first instinct was to curse them out and call them everything but a child of God. Instead, after taking some ribbing for a while, I made them a bet. I told them that I'd come back in 3 days with a photo of the piece I built and they'd have to stop teasing me. I showed up again at the appointed time and showed off the photos of my spiffy new bookshelves and they were stunned. Now when I go to HD, they smile and greet me warmly, but most importantly, with respect. I think on one hand you need to have a bit of a sense of humor about narrow minded nimrods while at the same time demanding respect. Good for you for saying something to the men. Just remember, in the grand scheme of things they are just tiny gnats on your life's radar and what they say/do is best taken with a grain of salt.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at November 5, 2009 11:54 PM
I have had similar experiences. I try to twist the situations to my advantage though there are times where you just can't play along.
But what's annoying is the assumption that I don't know, understand, or can't do anything myself. And the few that recognize that I know what I'm talking about say stuff like "you must have done your research" or, if they want to put me down, they insinuate that I have gleaned information from magazines or tv shows (since that's the ONLY way a FEMALE can know ANYTHING, right?). Often I ask questions, and the reply shows that THEY have no clue! It's a constant struggle to find competent people (but this is everywhere).
Posted by: townhouser at November 5, 2009 11:56 PM
This is a phony post. I am so sick of them. The Forum, which used to be really good, has become a silly place full of posts by the same idiot. This idiot has multiple identities and is a la the jackass troll who used to use all of his (I am sure it is a dweeby creepy guy) puny brainpower to suck brownstoners into stupid discussions on things like Prospect Lefferts Gardens. Are you the same jerk who posts endlessly on bedbugs? Really, tell me Brownstoners if I am wrong.
Posted by: maewest at November 6, 2009 1:41 AM
Working around high end (union) contractors and engineers all day, I agree w eman there is a culture of teasing and fun. It comes from sometimes having your life on the line and your life can often depend on your co-worker. This culture is part of bonding with co-workers who if they do a bad job can cost someone their life.
Having said that sometimes it can go over the line, the whip comment certainly did. You were right to protest.
But if you base your hiring decisions on rejection of this blue collar culture, let's hope you don't end up with the most sensitive yet unskilled contractor in Brooklyn.
Respect in the trades is earned, not given. Snappy did the right thing, she ribbed back, pushed back, and earned respect. Try it.
Don't think that contractors automatically think guys are smart and 'girls' are stupid; any contractor can find out what the client knows in a couple of sentences.
Posted by: denton at November 6, 2009 8:37 AM
thanks for posting your experience. As so much of this blog is about fixing things,it is only to be expected that the subject of this kind of treatment comes up.
There is a wide range of sexism, varying from the :"don't you worry your pretty little head about it" to the incredibly offensive violent quote about the whip. And perhaps you can only understand it if you have been the subject of this behaviour. Being called a faggot is less threatening if you are not one, but if you have experienced violence because of it, it takes on a different meaning. Dealing with sexist behaviour is not funny for most women.
Posted by: coopfornow at November 6, 2009 8:41 AM
Aside from the whip remarks, I think you'd do better to get them at their own game. I'm fighting age & gender & it's worked for me. When I phone my plumber now he tells me I don't need him, I can do it myself. Similarly w/ electricians. Even some really macho masons "saw the light" when they'd run out of sand & I hauled out a 70lb bag I had on hand. Snappy's right - get them to rise to your level otherwise you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Posted by: Arkady at November 6, 2009 9:54 AM
sounds like you make stereotype out of any male involved in home improvement. And the eman got in crossfire by proxy.
Males of all different occupations have very strange thoughts about women. It just hardware supply store blokes do not talk to any women so when they see you they cannot hold their ideas.
Posted by: bobjohn at November 6, 2009 9:55 AM
I agree with you about contractors being chauvinist. The profession attracts a great deal of misogynists as well.
I need simple work done in my kitchen. They talk to me like I am brainless. One guy who was mexican with no papers thought I should pay him $3000. for a job that will take 5 days. No electrical or plumbing. Just some painting and putting down vinyl tiles in a small galley kitchen.
The best part is I should buy all my supplies and materials.
He wanted $3000. straight for his personal salary. He will do the job alone.
The contractors in Ny are a nasty joke.
The job is still open.
Posted by: Ysabelle at November 6, 2009 10:02 AM
This is an original topic and a very interesting thing to consider.
Posted by: Billions and Billions at November 6, 2009 10:10 AM
Sort of off the topic- As someone who lived in NY her whole life I find it so weird that the OP called it the accent a "Bensonhurst" accent. In my day everyone in Brooklyn/All nabes had a "Brooklyn" accent. It was never differentiated by nabe.
Just an observation, not trying to make light of the post as I find the behavior of the store clerks sexist.
Maybe this should have gone under the "signs of gentrification" thread that was posted earier this week - The abscense of a Brooklyn accent as a sign of gentrification.
Posted by: italiana71 at November 6, 2009 10:15 AM
"you should respect the values of the supply house when you go into their place of business, no matter how foreign it seems to you" - Are you kidding me???
If you're interviewing contractors and get any attitude that you don't appreciate (whether you're male or female), end the discussion there, telling them they just lost any chance of the job. Money - or the absence thereof - talks.
BTW....I work in construction, BIG construction, and spend lots of time on site with the trades. When I get attitude I remind them that I'm a representative of the people that pay their (very big) contracts. I don't mind being called "ma'am" when it follows "I'm very sorry."
Posted by: CHMomma at November 6, 2009 10:28 AM
It's a real problem- maybe some women are more sensitive about it than others, but it is still a real issue. I deal with it depending on the person- some I'll joke back with. Others- I remind them who is paying whom. We had nightmare contractors from hell gut reno'ing the building next door and they treated us like we were totally stupid when we complained about things they were doing- like coming into MM's back yard and peeing against her wall. That stopped after a phone call to their boss with a rundown of who I knew and who I would call.
There are men who have no problem abusing or trying to intimidate women but would never dream of trying it with a guy. I'm dealing with such a situation now- and the sad part is some women buy into it too.
But I do find most people don't mean anything by it and especially with construction people, they like testing you. If the make you uncomfortable, walk out or fire them, if they compliment you, thank them and then get back to a discussion of business. If they tease you, tease back but make sure you set the limits. Mutual respect is genderless.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 6, 2009 11:50 AM
I am going through the exact same thing with my renovation. I got estimates from numerous plumbers and electricians, and some of them only wanted to deal with my husband. Despite my telling them all that I was paying for and managing the entire renovation, and that I should be their point of contact and my husband had no decision making authority, some of them still couldn't get it through their heads that they should call me, not him.
Aside from it being annoying to be treated like an after-thought the contractors who acted like this didn't get hired because I could just forsee endless games of telephone in the future, where they called my husband for a decision, who would have to call me; who would call the plumber/electrician, who would then call my husband back instead of me. This has happened a few times to me before, and has caused needless delays and aggrevation.
I even had a company explicitly tell me that they would NOT come to my house to give me an estimate unless both me and my husband were home. Even though I told them that the house was in my name alone, and that I was the only homeowner, they still refused to deal with me without my husband being present. Unbelievable.
I'm just saying that this kind of nonsense happens a lot more than most men realize, and this attitude can have a substantive impact on your project. It's not just something that we should deal with and get over, it can cause serious delays that impact inspection schedules, quality of life, and have financial consequences when construction gets seriously behind schedule due to communication telephone tag.
/end of rant.
Posted by: brooklynstyle at November 6, 2009 11:52 AM
I've worked for architecture firms, developers and a construction company. Things have gotten a lot better since the days when the head of the development firm I worked at called me honey all the time and constantly tried to give me shoulder massages, mostly in front of the other predominantly male staff, and wouldn't let me go out into the field without a male escort, often the oily staff of building managers. I remember applying for jobs and getting call backs and having firms hang up on me after they heard my voice (my real name could either male or female).
At work now, I definitely notice that construction staff talk more nicely around me than they do when they're with groups of guys, so they are guarded. It also probably stacks the cards differently that I'm now in charge of the project purse, but I've also noticed I've become alot more firm and decisive about how things are to be done.
I did have a recent problem with some Time Warner guys that came up on my low roof to do something for one of my neighborswith that spaghetti of wire they have draped everywhere. They were very rude and dismissive with me when I asked about what they were up to and whther all the wires were active; inexcusable!
Posted by: bessie2 at November 6, 2009 1:16 PM
"where they called my husband for a decision, who would have to call me; who would call the plumber/electrician, who would then call my husband back instead of me."
Seems like your husband's fault here, lol. Why didn't your husband just tell the contractor you were in charge, and refuse to discuss it?
Ask him that tonight over dinner :-)
Posted by: denton at November 6, 2009 1:31 PM
Hang in there Argentina. I have been lucky in that I have not had a problem with this with the contractors I've used (I'm a youngish woman). I have been asked many times by various tradespeople where/who my husband is, but it simplifies things that there is no husband, ha ha, so there's no option but to address things directly with me. I am also very hands-on, which over time has won the respect of some tradespeople (the rest probably think of me as the crazy lady who asks a lot of questions). Most of the people who worked in my house saw me there dirty in my work clothes painting, fixing, or building.
Posted by: BHS at November 6, 2009 1:40 PM
BHS, you sound like me! except no matter how much I do, or 'prove', the dynamic only improves temporarily; then it's right back to the you're-just-a-female-attitude even when I have to explain to people how to do their own job... so ridiculous. But I look at it more like a stupid-people problem than a sexist-issue, even though I know there would never even be a discussion if I was male.
Posted by: townhouser at November 6, 2009 1:47 PM
Townhouser, I think with certain people there's nothing you can really do to "prove" yourself and change their attitude. I was lucky enough to work with a GC who treated me with respect (that should not be a question, but I'm sure there are lots out there who might be problematic for a single female client). There may have been things said by the subs to the GC, that he thankfully dealt with and did not pass on. I see this all the time in the corporate world so I was pleasantly surprised with my experience with construction. I would certainly be up in arms if I had a husband involved in the project and he were treated differently than I was.
Posted by: BHS at November 6, 2009 2:05 PM
this reminds me of something that happened recently in my new nabe, Bay Ridge: I went to a hardware store on 3rd avenue to buy a bag of steel wool to plug up radiator holes. I walk in and the 20 something guy asks may I help you? I said, " I need a bag of steel wool please". He responded, "well what grade steel wool? What is HE planning on using it for? Because that makes a difference...." My jaw dropped! No way in hellz would anyone say that in my old 'hood (cobble hill) not even the old timers. And hellao, i'm in my 30's not some frail little old lady. Damn!
Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 6, 2009 3:33 PM
I'm a guy. Guys can be quite crude and joke around with one another - it's a way of relating that can be foreign to many women - greeting your friends has b*st*rds, telling them they look like sh*t - but the examples the OT posted are totally off for both professional reasons and because it is sexist and intimidating. Some women could dish it back and maybe deal with it that way, but they shouldn't have too.
I guarantee the shop attendant would not have spoken that way to a male customer, and definitely would not have said that to a woman in the presence of a husband, boyfriend or other guy that the woman was with as it would potentially have resulted in a serious beat down.
If a contractor was that jocular with a man, or made such dismissive comments with respect to questions or issues raised, they would not get the business from the guy and no one would be saying "you need to be more thick skinned".
Posted by: 1842 at November 6, 2009 3:38 PM
Argentina wrote:
"This guy had the thickest Bensonhurst accent imaginable."
Tsk...tsk, Argentina.
Shame on you!
Lack of awareness!
You are not hired, Argentina.
Posted by: Pigeon at November 6, 2009 4:21 PM
"Males of all different occupations have very strange thoughts about women. It just hardware supply store blokes do not talk to any women so when they see you they cannot hold their ideas."
LOL, bobjohn.
Posted by: mopar at November 6, 2009 5:33 PM
There are plenty of skilled professional contractors and suppliers out there so just keep on not hiring the a$$holes. If they have no respect for you then they'll do what they want on the job instead of what you're paying for.
I have my own tools and I know how to use them. I sweat pipes. But I don't have to prove anything to them. I'm not doing any heavy lifting - that's what I'm paying them for.
She who holds the checkbook holds the power.
PS I bought a wreck a long time ago. Got a lot of 'YOU'RE the owner?'. I assured them that it was OK, that it was legal for women to own property in New York State. They rarely GOT the sarcasm. rarely get that attitude any more.
Posted by: jfss at November 6, 2009 6:28 PM
"where they called my husband for a decision, who would have to call me; who would call the plumber/electrician, who would then call my husband back instead of me."
Seems like your husband's fault here, lol. Why didn't your husband just tell the contractor you were in charge, and refuse to discuss it?
Ask him that tonight over dinner :-)
LOL -- we talked numerous times about how asinine it was that contractors refused to call me. It was like they were going through contortions NOT to talk to me. My husband and I would both tell them to stop calling him and to call me, yet they couldn't get it through their thick heads. Like a mental block or something that a woman would have decision making capacity.
I used to deal with this nonsense all the time when I worked in IT as a programmer and doing tech support. I worked at a huge academic medical center and the doctors would always questioned my ability when I showed up to fix their computers; my male colleagues never got second guessed like I did. Since they were essentially paying me, I took more BS than I would have liked, but when I'm doing the hiring, I reserve the right not to work with any contractors who have a pathological inability to respect women!
Posted by: brooklynstyle at November 6, 2009 7:14 PM
the stupidest part of this is that some of my employees are women. and we still make dumbass sexist jokes..
Posted by: eman1234 at November 6, 2009 8:30 PM
eman1234
since when is making a pass at a woman considered a culture?
You't can't imagine how many men bug the crap outta me on a daily basis.
Tis the season to be jolly.........
Posted by: Ysabelle at November 6, 2009 10:20 PM
Listen, the reality is that women get hazed in stereotypically male work environments, and shouldn't need tougher skin than men in similar positions but absolutely do.
As a woman who has worked on way more jobsites than offices, I have survived and thrive because I have a very dirty mouth, am not afraid of conflict and am just about impossible to offend. I also go ahead and sympathize with how weird it looks to see a tiny blonde woman lifting a 100-lb bag of cement, actively point out that I am smaller than my co-workers, and generally don't try to act like everything's normal. I am a novelty, and honestly it's easier and more honest to work with it than it is to work against it.
You can't change people, but you can behave as if you will be treated the way you want to be treated, and empathize with the fact that a lot of people in the trades have very little formal education, come from countries that are really sexist, and live in a much more gendered world than you do. This mixture of integrity and empathy is strong. It doesn't work instantly, and is more about developing relationships than negotiating the hardware store, but it works really well.
Posted by: vanburenproud at November 7, 2009 9:33 AM
The surprising thing about this thread is it is full of women I had previously assumed were men.
Posted by: mopar at November 7, 2009 10:36 AM
"The surprising thing about this thread is it is full of women I had previously assumed were men."
You sexist :-)
Posted by: denton at November 7, 2009 5:30 PM
People who renovate brownstones are spending tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And while doing so they're being told by people like eman and denton they have to just accept and try to fit into the "culture" of these workers?
Whatever. Not by me. I would never hire anybody who made comments like the ones that were listed. How about these contractors and workers trying harder to fit into MY culture as their employer? You know, like I have to do when I'm hired by somebody! I think that's argentina's main point, that the new "culture" of homeowners in the United States is this: Women are a significant group of homeowners and even when married are more often the boss on these jobs, so act professionally and with courtesy or you don't get hired.
Posted by: traditionalmod at November 8, 2009 8:20 AM
I didn't say that, tmod. I think my post was a little more nuanced than that.
Posted by: denton at November 8, 2009 3:46 PM
misogyny doesnt make a man a bad contractor. I'd rather find a good and honest contractor and deal w/ some backwards ideas than be stuck w/ a guy who tells me everything I want to hear but disappears 1/2 way through.
Posted by: slick at November 8, 2009 11:17 PM
To slick:
Mysoginy and dissappearing from the job are not mutually exclusive.
to traditionalmod:
your post really gets the point I am making.
In this economy you can place yourself to an advantage by behaving professionally but overtly chauvinistic behavior is not professional and you will loose out financially. It's not about kumbaya moments it's respect for your client, you know the one that PAYS you.
I have heard so many comments from other women friends too numerous to list frankly, but they are intimidated by contractors...and contractors get away with stuff. I'm not intimidated and have fired people as well as developed long term relationships with contractors for specific trades over the years (plumbing, exterior work, mason)- guys I use repeatedly. In short I'm not a newbie and have done a lot of the work myself (with friends).The exchange in the electrical store really ticked me off. I was willing to let the proprietor get away with his dumb joke until his staffer piped in....not good.
Thank you all for posting your thoughts and weighing in.
Posted by: argentina at November 9, 2009 1:15 AM
...another footnote.
Home renovation is stressful, that's universal for all homeowners;the dust, the cost, the unexpected delays, etc.To bring in someone that adds to that stress with their attitude is just foolish. A colleague who had her place done recently gave me condolences when I told her I was doing this project. She is a breast cancer survivor and said that was easier to deal with than her kitchen renovation. Yes it is a joke but the point is that the wrong contractor can make your life miserable for the duration.
Posted by: argentina at November 9, 2009 1:43 AM
Link to professional women in construction. (Men are members also).
Link to Lenore Janis on the news, wrapped with her talking about Emily Roebling - an engineer on the Brooklyn Bridge.
http://www.pwcusa.org/flyers/video_small.mov
Posted by: masterbuilder at November 9, 2009 8:07 AM
Regarding Slick's comment: But that's the thing, I would expect a contractor to disappear from a job who DOES say misogynist things to his prospective employer from whom he is asking huge amounts of money. It shows lack of respect, lack of ethics, lack of intellect & reason, lack of emotional intelligence (simple common sense). Culture schmulture.
Posted by: traditionalmod at November 9, 2009 9:58 AM
Also I would add, for those who say it comes with the territory, none of the men I've hired to work on our house said things like Argentina heard and I genuinely did not believe they were misogynists just putting on a show of good manners for me. They treated me with respect. So the good ones ARE out there. No reason to put up with anything else.
Posted by: traditionalmod at November 9, 2009 10:00 AM
to slick: those are not the only two choices!
Posted by: coopfornow at November 9, 2009 10:13 AM
I stopped reading when I saw that its actually Mrs Mopar all this time!! Rock on you're doing a bang up job!
Posted by: jack slade at November 9, 2009 1:52 PM
You are 100% right there is no excuse for any of these offensive comments or actions.There are still alot of contractors and (supply houses) or stores in general that still believe in treating EVERY customer or client with respect and integrity with making you the client as comforatable as possible, after all clients and customers make our business prosper
Posted by: allgrout at November 11, 2009 7:58 AM
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