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November 4, 2009
Sublet/Share Legal Issue
I have a question about the apartment I live in in Brooklyn. The facts: first of all, technically (according to the lease) it is an "artist's loft" and is NOT rent-controlled or rent-stabilized, so those laws do not apply. Second, there are 5 of us that live here, yet only one of our names is on the lease (i'll call him John). john has lived here the longest and he signed a 2 year lease first in 2006, and renewed it last year. third, technically it is a "share" not a "sublet" since he has lived here with the 4 of us for most of the time. so every month he writes the check to the LL and we write checks to him. we recently found out that he is gouging us quite badly. john misrepresented the total rent on the loft to us, so while he writes a check for $3000 to the LL every month, he collects about $2900 from us. he's not making a profit from us, but he is only paying $100 rent/month while the other 4 of us pay about $700. also, about 6 months ago he quit his job in brooklyn and "moved" to miami to be with his girlfriend. he left all of his furniture here, and just took personal things and clothes. so since then, he has "subletted" (since now he is gone) out his room to another roommate--and charges him $800/month. so now john still writes the check to the LL for $3000/month but the 5 of us write checks to him that total $3600 (4 of us @ $700/mo and the new subletter at $800/mo. so he is making a profit now. john has only come back once since he's been gone--for 2 weeks, and will not tell us when he plans on coming back again, or for how long. he's obviously doing this to perpetuate the great deal he has. my question is--do we, as "roommates" or sub-tenants have any rights to pay less/receive damages? again it is technically an "artist's loft" not an "apartment" so i believe different rules apply, and also it is not rent stabilized or rent controlled. also, because john is the only one who signed a lease, he's in privity with the LL, and when i asked the LL for a copy of the lease, he didn't reply to me and instead went directly to john and told him someone was asking to see the lease. john never let me see the lease (but i sneaked and looked at it quickly one day) and that's how i figured out the rent was way lower.
is there anything i can do?
Comments
Sounds like you have a case of the green eyed monster. John has the lease and you are a roommate. Clear and simple.
Posted by: Rick at November 4, 2009 6:43 AM
How about this? What if you and your other roommates simply wrote a check to John for 1/5 the rent. (Or if you want to be a little bit nice, 1/5 rent plus 10% to him for setting it up.) Since he has the lease, he's the one who's obligated to pay. It might backfire: you might be evicted, but this game of chicken might work.
Posted by: Minmin at November 4, 2009 7:28 AM
You can move. You can stop paying rent and make him evict you. But that would make you a bad person. You have no moral or legal right to get a equal rent with him. Nor does he have to let you know what he pays. Unless he promised you something different - in which case he is a liar, but that still doesn't change your rights.
Do you like the apartment, your situation? Then just deal.
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at November 4, 2009 7:29 AM
if you like the place and cant get a better deal forget about what he pays. If its not such a great deal then move. Sometimes the landlord will give somebody like you the right t be on the lease but it sounds like the LL is fine with the situation and that is not an option
Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at November 4, 2009 9:00 AM
First, go to DHCR at 55 Hanson Place behind Pathmark to see if it is really Rent Stabilized or Rent Controlled. You must bring a utility bill and id since you have no copy of the lease.
Or better yet, check their link to see if the building is rent Stabilized, http://www1.dhcr.state.ny.us/BuildingSearch/
If the building is Rent Stabilized, then he can not by Rent Stabilization law charge you more than an equal split. If he is over charging you, the best you can do is file a rent Overcharge complaint and will more than likely receive triple damages for the amount you are being over charged, but it will not entitle your name on the lease.
Good luck and consider all you options.
Posted by: snowboardqueen at November 4, 2009 9:12 AM
Does the building have a residential certificate of occupancy? My guess is that it doesn't, in which case your "artist loft" lease is really just a commercial lease, so any rules regarding subtenants/roommates don't apply. In fact, without a CofO (or inclusion in the CofO process under the Loft Law), it isn't legal for anyone to live there.
Posted by: Iris at November 4, 2009 9:29 AM
snowboardqueen, Only the LL can initiate an overcharge suit against the tenant as part of an eviction proceeding.
Posted by: modsquad at November 4, 2009 9:29 AM
Mostly what Iris said. Under certain circumstances, roommates can initiate overcharge suits (contrary to Modsquad). Too many variables in what you've written, but unlikely your situation is one of those cases. The link below refers primarily to rent-regulated apartments, though you might find it useful. Go to the help desk at Kings County Housing Court and ask your question there: 141 Livingston St.: http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/faq/roommates.html
Posted by: vinca at November 4, 2009 10:19 AM
mind your own business. if you dont think it's fair, move out and get your own lease. when i lived in harlem with 5 other people we all wrote checks to the chick who was on the lease. of COURSE she was making money on it, who wouldnt?
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 11:22 AM
actually i think most of us paid in cash tho.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 11:25 AM
screw him. he screwed you. stop paying rent until you're equal. it would take him a long time to evict you anyway, and since you can prove you've been paying rent, I'm sure you could make up a hardship excuse to stay on the right side of the law. he deserves it. I hope you weren't friends before you signed the lease -- I knew a group of people in the same sitch and it broke up their friendships...what a mess. don't forget to take your valuables out of the apartment.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 11:25 AM
HOW did he screw this person? the people here are all paying 700-800 each to live in a loft! whatever. the person is just bitter. clearly he / she isnt qualified or can afford to have their own lease or go out and get their own loft, so they ARE at the mercy of roommates and stuff, and this is how nyc works when it comes to roommates. this person sounds like a whiny crybaby, no wonder the original guy moved to florida and left you all there.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 11:27 AM
Not my area, but, if this is a commercial lease, and if roommates cut back on payments or stop paying, what rights would they have if the owner just resorted to self-help and locked them out? It's bad karma and heavily frowned upon in housing court, but would that even be an available venue? Not sure there's a right here to a pro-rated share.
Posted by: slopefarm at November 4, 2009 11:36 AM
Seriously, "John" is the leaseholder... and is really the only responsible party in the eyes of the landlord/law. While it would be *nice* if he made it an equal split, the fact is that it's completely reasonable that he is operating with a certain business mind-set.
Is "John" a rich investment banker? Or has he figured out a way to make do with a smaller income in this city... AND provide 4 other folks with a reasonable rent.
Do you think $$ you pay is unreasonable compared to other places you could live? If so, move to that other place. If it's reasonable in comparison... I don't know why you're complaining.
Folks on here know that I'm the first to bitch about the high cost of living in this city and the ridiculous housing costs. HOWEVER, this is not an example of this. This is an example of you accepting a deal and then finding out the back story. My landlord charges me $XXX... but I find out he doesn't have a mortgage and is spending the money on hookers. Should I complain and ask him for a rent reduction?!
Posted by: tybur6 at November 4, 2009 11:37 AM
Slopefarm... this is certainly a commercial lease and there is NO rights to a pro-rated share. The leaseholder can determine how much his time/effort/risk is worth as the executor of the lease. And he most certainly could make a profit. Salons rent "chairs" -- of course the leaseholder is making a profit (or trying to).
This is not an apartment -- this is a commercial space that folks happen to sleep in.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 4, 2009 11:39 AM
thanks to those of you who gave good advice. i think i/we are just screwed though since out building is not rent stabilized (oh and yes there is a cert. of occupancy even though it is specified as an "artist's loft" in the lease). it's sad because we were all friends, but ever since we realized john lied to us and screwed us out of a lot of money over the years we've mostly written him off. this really isn't a case of jealousy either--when i discovered the rent situation, i told the other roommates about it and suggested that we split up our aggregate total evenly between the 4 of us so that at least we would be equitable amongst ourselves--and i had been paying the least amount of anyone since my room was the smallest, but i felt so bad for one roommate who makes very little money (i make $80k so it wasn't a big deal to me) that john was charging him the most rent, and everyone agreed that equal rent would be the best and at least keep harmony between us. also john is one of the cheapest people i've ever met, so i should have seen this coming. he bought a $10 set of 6 water glasses from target and then emailed all of us asking to add $2 to our rent checks to cover the expense, and he makes us pay for renter's insurance when i know the policy is only in his name and would only cover his belongings if something should happen. i brought that up to him once and he threw a fit and said that the policy covers all of the belongings in the apartment. (which is not true--in an apartment where i used to live, we were robbed and i had a renter's insurance policy but my roommate didn't, her stuff was not reimbursed for just because we shared the apartment. only the stuff i had enumerated and had pictures of and receipts for were.) i know it's easier to just move, but the 4 of us like living together a lot and there's been no tension since john has been in miami. we just worry because he never tells us when he is coming back. oh and the time he came back for 2 weeks he didn't pay any rent--just crashed on the couch and ate our food/used my shampoo/laundry detergent and complained how someone needed to clean the bathroom. i think when/if he comes back for good we will move out, but i was just wondering if there was a way to show he abandoned the lease since he's gone indefinitely, and take it over (which it should be noted, is what he did to the previous leaseholder of this apartment when she moved with her boyfriend to Texas). John is a borderline sociopath too, but that's for another conversation.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 11:51 AM
Sorry.. I don't see where this is wrong... it may have some moral stuff with it but legally he is within his right. Ultimately the burden of the rent falls on him ..you all can move... from my math I think even with his trick u are still paying below market aren't u?
Posted by: scarter at November 4, 2009 11:59 AM
quote:
(i make $80k so it wasn't a big deal to me)
and youre complaining about 700 dollars a month rent. :-/
where's my violin!?! i left it in the watertaxi thread.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 12:02 PM
so yeah, maybe my real question was just lost in that sea of words in my comments, but: if john left our apartment to go to miami indefinitely, is there a way we can approach the LL to take over the lease? also, i hope next year the IRS comes after john for failing to declare the profit he's making as an income from us and his subletter over this past year.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:03 PM
rob: my monthly student loan payments exceed my rent, and i also help out my disabled fixed-income mom.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:07 PM
The current lease expires in a year? Talk to the landlord. Tell him that "John doesn't look like he plans on staying here long-term" (don't say he's gone away, cuz he might want to kick you all out for abandonment of the property... there are some seriously douchey landlords out there) and ask him to renew with YOU guys instead of John. Then John can be the subletter... and you can charge him whatever you'd like.
No?
Posted by: tybur6 at November 4, 2009 12:07 PM
I was in a fairly similar situation with my first apartment in Soho, and trust me, from someone who went nuclear : it wasn't worth it. Yes, John is an asshole. Yes, you feel you were robbed. However, there is no redress for your loss.
My advice is for you to move. It's a great time to find a rental, and make sure to get a real lease next time. The Johns of this world have no real friends, that's their karma.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 12:07 PM
If you don't like the situation just move. It's his lease and apartment...He can make a profit. If you have your name on file with housing court even if you are sueing him..No landlord will want to give you a lease. You will be in housing court and labled a bad tenant.
Posted by: Alexandria at November 4, 2009 12:08 PM
Ignore Rob, he lives in opposite world.
Do call the IRS on John, it works.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 12:10 PM
why don't the four of you go get your own lease somewhere? it's simple, really.
Posted by: townhouser at November 4, 2009 12:11 PM
AMEN The 4 of you go out and find another loft space, pack up and leave John holding the empty bag. Better still, don't give him any notice. It's a renters market. Quit swallowing the poison.
Posted by: IMBY at November 4, 2009 12:16 PM
the main reason that we don't all pack up and leave is that he has $5000 in security deposit money from us that i know he will try and find any way not to return.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:20 PM
quote:
rob: my monthly student loan payments exceed my rent, and i also help out my disabled fixed-income mom.
ugh. now i feel bad. sorry. 1.) i dont pay back my student loans and 2.) i cant afford to help my abandoned grandmother :( i suck! but i dont bring nearly as much drama as it seems you and your clan of loft dwellers do!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 12:22 PM
tybur: i thought about that but considering the LL wouldn't even respond to me when i asked him for a copy of the lease, and instead went right to john to tell him someone was snooping around, i know if i were to approach him in that way, he'd ask john if he had left and john would flip out again, say no, resign the lease, and then kick me out.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:24 PM
quote:
Ignore Rob, he lives in opposite world.
Do call the IRS on John, it works.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? call the IRS On this guy? whatEVER john was doing THIS guy a favor letting him stay there. jeez some of you are so screwed in the head. call the IRS. tattles tales. just move on and chalk it up to experience. john did nothing wrong.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 12:26 PM
i have a feeling *rob* might be "john"...
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 12:30 PM
Just don't pay the last month and move. The flip side of you having no redress is that he foesn't either. The 4 of you can probably find a better deal somewhere else. Either way, you have to realize you will never recover your security deposit. He spent it when he moved to Miami. The money is gone.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 12:30 PM
Fuck with people, and some will fuck you back. I'm sure John will chalk it up as valuable experience.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 12:33 PM
If you think you have a great deal (forget what he is paying), don't do anything. You are just going to blow it all up and then everyone will be screwed.
Call the IRS? That's just evil.
Posted by: Brokedeveloper at November 4, 2009 12:34 PM
plus the IRS has bigger fish to fry than to deal with a loft full of losers living in brooklyn. seriously.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 12:37 PM
If living there is worth $700/month to you, and you and John and the others in your commune never agreed to split the rent equally, I don't see that you (or your roommates) have anything to complain about. And, P.S., it's not nice to "sneak" into someone's private room and look at their personal papers.
Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 12:39 PM
So, John is one of the cheapest people you know AND a borderline sociopath, but you chose to live with him anyway, and you didn't forsee their being problems? ROFL.
Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 12:46 PM
I've been in the original poster's position and I've been in "John's" position. It's quite simple- John has the lease and as a roommate you're out of luck in expecting more. Suck it up. Is it fair that John is making money from this arrangement? Maybe, maybe not but that's neither here nor there. Secondly, as somebody who has been the main point of contact/responsible for collecting rent and utility bills from several roommates it's no walk in the park to be in John's shoes either. One of you bails and he's responsible. One of you doesn't have money for your electric bill (and since it's probably commercial not residential it's hefty) and again, he has to deal. I'd actually say he deserves to pad the rent a bit just for the potential for irritation.
Posted by: Snarkypants at November 4, 2009 12:52 PM
Certificates of occupancy aren't just for residential use. Just because there is a C of O, doesn't mean that the space can be legally occupied by a residential tenant. Perhaps the landlord doens't want you to see the lease for this reason.
Posted by: jessibaby at November 4, 2009 1:00 PM
"Ignore Rob, he lives in opposite world."
I've heard Park Slope called a number of different things.
But this is a new one.
Posted by: Biff Champion at November 4, 2009 1:05 PM
he screwed you. there is an unwritten rule that when friends move in together, they split the rent equally. everybody's so focused on what's legal. He tried to take advantage of his friends, and what he did was sh!tty -- it sounds like a lot of people here think it's totally justified. I hope I am never friends with them. You should skip paying rent for at least a month to cover your security deposit, and then move out and leave him holding the bag. don't forget to take out those valuables.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 1:16 PM
John doesn't need to find a way to not return the $5k- he can just keep it, because you have no tenant rights. But if you stop paying rent, he has no legal rights to get it out of you, because he has no LL/lessor rights. I agree with whomever said stop paying rent for a month or two and move out, but don't tell him-- or, at the end, just tell him to use your security for the outstanding rent. You run the risk of him changing the locks but if you time it right, he won't, b/c it won't do him any good.
Posted by: blowfish at November 4, 2009 1:21 PM
depending on your anger level, you have a variety of ways to handle this.
1. not really angry. stay put, suck it up.
2. angry enough to move. follow maly and leave john surprise and holding responsibility to pay $3k a month. he'll have trouble filling up the apt so this will be a blow to him financially. and you'll have to move, but as others have stated, there are lots of places available now.
3. really effing angry. Do 2. and call in the tax cops. I am quite certain, he's not been reporting his income.
Personally, i think #3 is a nuclear route and would settle on #2 and watch him burn.
Posted by: antidope at November 4, 2009 1:24 PM
is it a multi-year lease? even more pain for john then.
Posted by: antidope at November 4, 2009 1:25 PM
jessi! Where ya been?! I'm STILL waiting for you!
Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 1:29 PM
Joe the bummer, it doesn't to me as if these roommates were friends before moving in together. It's definitely pretty crappy that "John" had been living in a loft for $100/month but how close could these people have been for nobody to realize this beforehand? It sounds like business to me and not necessarily friendship.
Also, friends do not always split the rent evenly. If all the bedrooms are the same size of course rent should be equal. However, if one roommate lives in a closet while the other lives in a palace rent should reflect that.
Frankly, I'm surprised at the amount of advice advocating not paying rent, leaving John holding the bag, etc. If that is how you deal with conflict then expect the same thing to happen to you one day. Maybe I'm missing something here but did the OP and the rest of the roommates even confront "John" about this? Has anybody said "Hey, we know we're paying more than the lease is for and we're not happy"?
Posted by: Snarkypants at November 4, 2009 1:32 PM
didn't realize he was so cheap and a sociopath...true colors took a while to come out and i gave him the benefit of the doubt. i'm leaning toward, when we move, just not paying the last month-2 of rent. if he's still in miami (probably) then it would be a pain for him to try and change the locks or evict us. and by that time we would be moving out.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 1:35 PM
antidope, nice nuclear approach. nasty! I love it. He absolutely should have been reporting income and the tenants have cancelled checks to prove the case.
OP at least you'll have that as a threat if it gets nasty.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 1:37 PM
11:51 "it's sad because we were all friends". This guy ripped off people who trusted him, and they deserve to get their money back.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 1:46 PM
Snarkypants, friends communicate, they don't pull a fast one and get others to subsidize their lifestyle unknowingly.
And Antidope, your nuclear option is sweet compared to what I did. When I go nuclear, it gets a lot more scorched Earth than that. To be fair, "John" sounds like a garden-variety scum compared to my John. My nuclear option included lawyers.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 1:52 PM
quote:
Maybe I'm missing something here but did the OP and the rest of the roommates even confront "John" about this? Has anybody said "Hey, we know we're paying more than the lease is for and we're not happy"?
of course not. they snooped thru his personal belongings and then went and whined about it anonymously on the internet :-/
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 1:54 PM
You were all happy to pay the rent initially. Now because you found out that he's making a profit your sense of what the place is worth diminishes???
A bunch of asinine hipsters with their panties in a bunch.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 4, 2009 1:55 PM
1) What John pays the landlord is none of your business... Your agreement is with John, not the landlord.
2) Pay what John says, or leave.
It's that simple.
I'm sure John has his own perspective, he probably put money up front and perhaps built the place out.
Obviously there's some reason you're not simply going a renting your own place and finding people to move in. It's a big in the ass. John probably feels he can rightly be compensated for this.
If you disagree, move. But why go causing troubles for this guy?
Posted by: streber at November 4, 2009 2:00 PM
The answers are very interesting. If you think it's OK to do that, I'm definitely not letting you guys figure out how to split the check at the end of a meal.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 2:05 PM
Where else can you live in a Loft in NY of $700 a month? It does not matter if he made a profit..It's his lease and this is business. When you moved in thought the apartment war worth $700 per month. So stop being a cry baby move out an get your own lease. Live out your months deposit and move.
Posted by: Alexandria at November 4, 2009 2:07 PM
we did try and confront him civilly about the rent, multiple times, and he just kept denying it and saying we were wrong. so yeah finally i looked at the lease (which was on a shelf in the common area) to confirm that i knew what the amount was (initially he had left his rent check out before sending to the LL and i was like, that can NOT be the whole amount!? but it was...) also when he renewed the lease in 2008 he passed on the increased rent and security deposit to us rather than take any additional on himself.
also, we all give him our bill checks on time, but he rarely pays them on time. several months ago we got a 4th and final notice our power would be shut off. i dont care about ruining credit since it's in his name, but we need power, and he's in miami so doesn't really care. i've been taking care of them since that happened, and it's really not a pain to ask people for the con ed bill every month.
just an additional note: when he was here for that 2 week period, he invited a couple of friends over for frozen margaritas. 2 hours before they were supposed to come, he sent out an email to them (and to us) saying he had purchased chips, dip, and frozen mix but someone else needed to bring the tequila as he had spent enough already.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 2:16 PM
QUOTE:
, he invited a couple of friends over for frozen margaritas. 2 hours before they were supposed to come, he sent out an email to them (and to us) saying he had purchased chips, dip, and frozen mix but someone else needed to bring the tequila as he had spent enough already.
AHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. im starting to like this john guy!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 2:31 PM
Well, rob, it looks like he may have rooms to rent in his loft pretty soon.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 2:37 PM
all of you people who think it's totally ok to make a few bucks behind the backs of your friends, you are hateful bastards and you make this city suck. greedy pigs.
mightierthanwords, go get'im. he has your hard earned money and you deserve it back.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 2:37 PM
oooooouch 216p. now i would definately go nuclear. i hate it when hosts don't pay for the alcohol.
Posted by: antidope at November 4, 2009 2:38 PM
quote:
all of you people who think it's totally ok to make a few bucks behind the backs of your friends, you are hateful bastards and you make this city suck. greedy pigs.
business is business, friendship is friendship. how long have you been in nyc? and something tells me these people are mere acquaintenances at most, not real friends.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 2:42 PM
So Rob, if I were your co-worker, it would be OK for me to steal a few bucks in your wallet every week? After all, we'd just be acquaintances, not really friends (especially since I'd be robbing you blind.) Assuming I'm not taking too much at a time, and you don't realize your dollar bills are vanishing, it's just business.
Posted by: Maly at November 4, 2009 2:47 PM
" so yeah finally i looked at the lease (which was on a shelf in the common area) to confirm that i knew what the amount was (initially he had left his rent check out before sending to the LL and i was like, that can NOT be the whole amount!? but it was...)"
This story keeps changing. If John was trying to conceal that he was profiting from your rent, why oh why would he leave the lease on a shelf in a common area and leave his rent check out??? [Buzzer sounds] Next contestant, please!
Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 2:49 PM
carroll go back and read the posts. he denied overcharging the rent. he probably just got a little lazy.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 3:09 PM
it doesnt matter he OVERcharged. it was agreed to that youd pay 700 dollars a month, doesnt MATTER that he was paying less. at ALL. and maly your scenario is completely ridiculous and doesnt relate to this issue at all.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 3:11 PM
if the 4 of you are paying $2800/month to him, why does he have $5000 in security deposit? did he make you all pay more than 1 month's security?
Posted by: CG_ups at November 4, 2009 3:25 PM
*rob* sounds like you would do the same to your friends?
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at November 4, 2009 3:30 PM
That was my guess, CG_ups. First and last month's, plus $400 for something.
Posted by: CarrollGardened at November 4, 2009 3:30 PM
$400 is for chips and margarita mix, but, sadly, not the tequila.
Posted by: antidope at November 4, 2009 3:35 PM
he made us pay "1 month rent + $500" as a security deposit. so he has actually $4800 of our money if you want me to be specific.
last year he said i could have a copy of the lease if i wanted, and so i said ok i would like one. then anytime i'd ask him to pony it up, he would say he didn't know where it was. (we have a lot of shelves/common space in our loft and much of it is cluttered with his shit, so he would just motion toward the shared office area and say "it's in there somewhere".) i finally just rifled through some of the shelves one day, and found it in an envelope marked "lease."
the day that i saw the rent check, he had left it on the kitchen table and ran out to get stamps or something (to mail it to the LL). since we all have office jobs, and he quit his (since he has like no expenses) i assume he didn't realize i was home sick that day and that i saw it when i woke up.
this has become insane. i was just wondering if we had recourse to take over the lease since he pretty much moved out so long ago. guess not. thanks to those of you who are understanding of how stressful it is to live with a greedy sociopath.
Posted by: mightierthanswords at November 4, 2009 3:49 PM
main reason that we don't all pack up and leave is that he has $5000 in security deposit money from us that i know he will try and find any way not to return.
You were never getting that money back from John. You think a guy who's done this to you won't find some pretext to keep more of your money?
If I've got this right, when you moved in he told you the rent was $3500 per month and it would be split equally? Or he told you you paid 1/5 of the rent, which was $700 (same difference).
Well, then, since the rent was only $3000, that means you were overpaying your agreed-upon share by $175 per month before the new roommate moved in. And since the new roommate moved in, you've been overpaying by $200.
So, stop paying him.
I'd tell him that since there is a new roommate, you will be paying 1/6 of the $3,000 rent from this point forward ($500 a month), and that he should take the first however many months out of your security deposit, and the next however many months out of your overpayments to date. If he comes back at you, don't negotiate, don't explain, don't discuss, this is just how it is. Give him a lot of "I'm so sorry you feel that way. I felt pretty terrible when I found out I'd been overpaying for so many months." And then just say nothing.
He mis-represented the terms of a contract that is probably unenforceable anyway. It doesn't matter how you found out he was lying. Blah blah blah, don't get sucked into his drama. Just, these are your terms. And if he gets all "and if I don't accept your terms," just say "I'm sorry." And hang up. It's not your job to solve his problem of not liking the fact you'll be paying him less, and only start paying him again after your overpayments/security have brought you back to an even balance.
Tell your roommates you are doing this, as an FYI. If they want to do it, too, be supportive of them. But do this with or without them. But be clear that this is between you and John, it's John's name on the lease, it's HIS problem (not theirs) to find the money to pay.
He will undoubtedly try to get you out of there. But odds are, he would have tried to get you out of there anyway since you're the pesky troublemaker who exposed his scam.
Remove all your valuables from the apartment NOW. Put some clothes at a friend's house where you could crash for awhile if he changes the locks. Make sure none of the utilities, etc are in your name. Have a plan for what to do if you come home to find the locks changed. Get all illegal substances out of your place (pot, whatever) in case he calls the cops. Change the password of all your accounts to something that's hard to hack.
And start looking for a new place. If this works out and he doesn't give you a hard time, once you've lived there long enough that all the overpayments are even, ask yourself if you want to live in this place for $500 a month, given the trust situation with John. If the answer is no, start looking for a new place.
But under no circumstances does John get any more of your money until the balance comes even.
Posted by: bkrules at November 4, 2009 3:50 PM
I think the issue is black and white. You all agreed to pay what he was asking. It doesn't matter what he is/was paying.
If I felt an item is worth $100 and I buy it for $100, do I have the right to to get my money back if I found out someone else bought it for $20? No.
I still agree that "John" is a douche... AND he is the one who has his credit at risk here. If you want to stick it to him, you have the option.
Posted by: mrkknox at November 4, 2009 3:55 PM
oh whatever. John gave you and your broke a$$ friends a place to live, for cheap i might add, and he threw in chips and salsa. you sound like a whiney brat. you have no recourse. Judge Judy would rip you a new one if you were in her court.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 4:06 PM
If he made you pay more than a month for security then that is most certainly "business" and not "friendship". That should have been a big tip-off as to the kind of relationship you were getting into when dealing with him.
I was friendly with a former landlord before renting from her. When I agreed to take her apartment she suddenly asked me for 2 months security deposit. I was a little taken aback by the request but still gave it to her. I also quickly downgraded our relationship from friend to business- a very good call. Particularly over a year later when she casually mentioned that it was "cheeky and resourceful" of her to ask for 2 months security because she really needed the cashflow at the time. Now a friend might have been rather annoyed by such a statement. However, somebody who did "business" with her chalked one up for experience and moved on.
And please do not take bkrule's advice unless you are looking for a shit ton of drama. If you are so unhappy with the arrangement and civilized behavior and dialogue isn't creating a satisfying resolution for you then you really should just move on. It's not worth the negativity, especially when you have to live in it.
I will add that I do think John is a douche, too, but that has nothing to do with the arrangement you made with him.
Posted by: Snarkypants at November 4, 2009 4:07 PM
Also Post your question on www.tenant.net in the forum section.
Posted by: 1910 at November 4, 2009 4:19 PM
Try preemptively paying the rent one month directly to the LL. Entice him with cash if needed and get a signed receipt. This will complicate the situation and give you rights to the existing Lease in that the LL has tacitly approved your tenancy by excepting the rent. I think you would be protected from an eviction proceeding by uberTenant. You could also stop paying rent and probably continue to occupy the space for enough months to break even on your security.
Posted by: modsquad at November 4, 2009 5:02 PM
quote:
. You could also stop paying rent and probably continue to occupy the space for enough months to break even on your security.
uh yeah cuz that's just SO fair to the landlord. dont take this moron's advice.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 5:19 PM
It sounds like the LL is complicit in this case buttface. Why should the sub tenants have any responsibility to the LL. They enjoy zero rights at this point.
Posted by: modsquad at November 4, 2009 6:02 PM
So, wait. You all "SHOULD" be paying $500/month and instead 4 of you are paying $700 and the leaseholder is paying $200? Math is not my strong suit and I wasn't paying close attention, but wtf. Yes, $200 can seem like a lot of money when you're young and broke and in the city, but for christ's sake, the guy isn't even LIVING there most of the time... so... who cares if he pays less? He still has responsibility. He still has the lease. He still put down the initial money with the landland and built the place.
And, frankly, as I discovered when I was young and broke in the city, it's an amazingly common story. And the moral is simple: get your own lease, probably at another apartment.
If you want the bad karma and potential repercussions, then by all means, stop paying rent and move out. Not that big a deal. When John assumed the lease, he assumed the risk that you all would do that. So give him 2 months notice and do so.
Posted by: Heather at November 4, 2009 6:13 PM
did you seriously just call me buttface? hahah. i KNOW the subtenant (psoter) has no liability to the owner, but heather made an excellent point. it's an absentee roommate essentially who pays less. duh of course they should pay less! case closed. and yeah like she said it's very very very very common, it's essentially how the rental share market works for people who HAVE to have roommates and cant get their lease. im in a good situation now where it's 50/50 but it was never always that way.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at November 4, 2009 6:56 PM
I'm just answering the question without the predictable agendas many on this blog have.
OP was looking for any "rights" he might have, not moral navel gazing or a spanking. I personally don't think there's much of a screwing going on here.
Did I call you buttface? Do you turn your head whenever you here some kid shout out, "Hey Asshole!"?
Posted by: modsquad at November 4, 2009 8:04 PM
Just bite the bullet and talk to the landlord. Tell him what's been going on- considering the economy, I'm sure he's much rather have tenants than not. That said, and I am not sure if it applies in your case, tenants are not allowed, by law to make money off of a rental. That is- the leaseholder is not allowed to make money on a landlord's property. So john is essentially using the lease to make money.
Check the lease to see if there is a residency requirement. Does a tenant have to be in residence in order to keep the lease? In some situations- such as rs/rc, they do.
In any case, stop paying John and start paying the landlord directly. Don't expect to see any money back from John- and once you settle your situation you can tell him he can pick up his stuff or you will assume he has abandoned it and you'll do what you want with it.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 5, 2009 10:30 AM
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