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October 16, 2009
To Build, or Not
i'm looking for space for a studio, i'm a painter, and living space. i want to buy and am starting to consider building from the ground up. has anyone done this, in brooklyn? i'm thinking of a pretty stripped down, industrial space. Any advice on the pros or cons of building is appreciated. Also can anyone recommend a builder for such a project who they've had good experience with? thanks.
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Posted by: OldManSam at October 16, 2009 10:53 PM
I would think true "ground up" construction would be far more expensive than the alternative.
To build ground up you need to buy the land, hire architect to draw up plans, get the required permits & approvals for said plans from the city, hire contractors/construction crews and then wait for it all to happen - which will probably be at least 2xs as long as you think (permit delays, construction delays, etc).
I think it would be quicker/cheaper/smarter to find a raw live/work space that you can get cheap and then customize the interior.
Starting from scratch is never as cheap or easy as you might think...
Posted by: christopher at October 17, 2009 12:09 PM
it is quite "post-industrial" to build studio from ground up with industrial style. I guess you mean to take an industrial space and convert it into studio.
Posted by: bobjohn at October 17, 2009 3:27 PM
to bobjohn, no, i mean building from the ground up. and when i say industrial i mean a basic, no frills space for work, and a very basic living space. not because its 'post-industrial' but because it would be cheap and workable.
Posted by: sdsfortunata at October 19, 2009 3:04 AM
The only thing that MAY be more affordable than the typical building from the ground up, but I don't know the prices, is a prefab modular structure. They are offered in really cool, modern, studio-like designs from some companies. Most are smaller structures which is good for narrow, city-sized lots.
Posted by: traditionalmod at October 19, 2009 9:49 AM
Here's a list of prefabs and kits on a small-house website:
http://www.smallhousestyle.com/small-house-builders-prefab-kits/
Posted by: traditionalmod at October 19, 2009 9:51 AM
SD - I think that the main advantage to building ground up is that you will have some control over the kinds of spaces available. Brownstone and traditional house layouts can be limiting, especially for space that have detailed or specific programmatic and lighting requirements like art studios. Depending on where you build, you can also have a building that matches with your aesthetic sensibilities (you are pretty much SOL on that account if you want to build in a landmark district.)
Building ground up will take longer, and yes, there will be additional approvals required. However, I am working on a "no frills" project right now (ground floor commercial space with 1 apartment above.) The owner has a very tiny construction budget, and we are challenged to make things as simple as we can, but it looks like it will come in on budget. The kind of thing you are talking about doing can be done.
Also - don't waste your time with the prefab kits unless you are looking to build outside NYC. They do not meet NYC code requirements without substantial (and expensive) modifications.
Posted by: architect66 at October 19, 2009 9:59 AM
66,
That's the funny part about pre-fab in NY. If it's a one or two-family structure, the city codes are overruled by the state, and the state is much more lenient.
This is something I've been researching and working with home manufacturers for a couple of years now to address. The per square foot costs are much less, but the real saver seems to be the timing. Construction time is cut in a third, sometimes quicker.
Posted by: JimHill at October 19, 2009 11:56 AM
It's great if you and others can figure out how to work around city codes in order to do prefab, Jim Hill. I'm kind of in love with the notion of modern modular houses in Brooklyn.
Posted by: traditionalmod at October 19, 2009 12:40 PM
JimHill - We are on the same side of this, but in the interest of not misleading readers of this blog, NYS Code does not ever supersede the NYC Building Code. See NYS Code Chapter 1, Section 102.2 and NYC Code 101.2. All construction in NYC including 1 and 2 family dwellings is subject to the NYC Building Code, and is subject to review by the NYC Department of Buildings. Sometimes, where NYC code is not specific, NYS building code applies in addition to NYC code. However, requirements of NYC code are never replaced by more lenient requirements of NYS codes.
It would be wonderful if prefab home manufacturers could develop a NYC code compliant solution. I've offered to help a few to do it over the years. I don't think it would be so hard, and lord knows I have no shortage of interested clients. Certainly it would only improve the landscape and housing stock in Brooklyn.
Posted by: architect66 at October 19, 2009 1:33 PM
Not to engage in a pissing match, but that's not my understanding. I've spoken with the state code officials regarding exactly this. What follows is a quote from an email from an official in the NY State code enforcement division:
__________________________________________________________
The New York State Fire Prevention and Building Code Act, also known as Article 18 of the Executive Law, is the law that implemented the Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code throughout New York State. Section 383(1) states in part that "The provisions of this article and of the uniform fire prevention and building code shall supersede any other provision of a general, special or local law, ordinance, administrative code, rule or regulation inconsistent or in conflict therewith..."
This means no municipality can have their own code. This section is followed by an exception that states the following:
c. That, in cities with a population of over one million, the existing building and fire prevention codes shall continue in full force and effect beyond January one, nineteen hundred eighty-four unless the council, after analysis and consultation with the building and fire officials of such cities, shall determine that said local code provisions are less stringent than the uniform code. Existing local statutory, regulatory and administrative laws and provisions of such cities shall continue in full force and effect unless the foregoing is determined by the council. Notwithstanding this paragraph, when such factory manufactured homes are intended for use as one or two family dwelling units or multiple dwellings of not more than two stories in height, provided such multiple dwellings are not intended for use as hotels or motels, the provisions of this article and of the uniform fire prevention and building code pertaining to factory manufactured homes shall supersede any other provision of general, special or local law, ordinance, administrative code, rule or regulation inconsistent or in conflict therewith.
[code official's commentary:]
In summary, subsection (c) allows New York City, because it has a population of more than one million, to enforce their code with the exception of factory manufactured homes that are intended for use as one or two family dwelling units or multiple dwellings of not more than two stories in height, not including hotels and motels. Factory manufactured homes that are intended for use as one or two family dwelling units or multiple dwellings of not more than two stories in height are required to comply with either the Residential Code of New York State(one- or two-family homes) or the Building Code of New York State (Three or more dwellings) as appropriate. Hotels, motels, and multiple dwellings more than two stories in height are subject to the New York City Building Code.
__________________________________________________________
The real key here is the last part, in the code official's commentary, where he states that New York City can enforce its code with the exception of factory manufactured homes that are intended for use as one or two family dwelling units or multiple dwellings of not more than two stories in height.
Posted by: JimHill at October 19, 2009 5:04 PM
JimHill we are not pissing. As a professional, and as one who has been pursuing this for a while, I feel it is important to convey accurate information about building code requirements and enforcement to the 10 readers who will venture down to this point in the thread. So thanks for elaborating on the NYS/NYC code issue.
I should note that there are several examples of NYC approved pre-fab construction. There is a major manufacturer of pre-fab residential construction in the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and they have fabricated projects in NYC. The problem is that they have a minimum manufacturing run of 20,000 SF.
Even though NYS code may govern manufactured homes, there is still a gauntlet of city approvals required, including some that go through DOB (foundation, for instance.) Your state code citation notwithstanding, there are still some real bureaucratic obstacles to getting small prefab projects through the DOB, and anyone who wants to pursue such a project should go into it with their eyes open.
Posted by: architect66 at October 19, 2009 5:54 PM
66,
Good. Didn't want you to think I'm trying to one-up you. I
appreciate the ability to discuss this with someone else who has also been doing the research in earnest.
I've spoke to those people at the yard, Capsys, and a few others who do steel pre-fab. It's pretty much the same answer, either 20,000-25,000 square feet or a minimum of $400 per square foot. I couldn't believe the latter, but it's true, from a smaller pre-fabber in NYC.
100% agreed about the obstacles. The company I deal with has done this sort of thing here before, so I don't expect too much hassle. We'll need to file with NYC DOB for the whole thing, and then we'll need to do some coordination to make sure the NYS code comes into play, and of course the foundation will need to be filed and reviewed by NYC, as well as the inspections related to it.
I would appreciate the chance to talk with you directly outside of the forum, perhaps put our heads together and discuss the specifics, rather than bore our fellow brownstoners. If you don't mind, please email me directly at jim(at)urban-pioneering.com and we'll continue the discussion there.
Posted by: JimHill at October 20, 2009 4:19 PM
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