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« Getting Sec Dep After 5 Yrs Tenant Rights: Hallway Upkeep? »
October 23, 2009
Tenant Leaving Water On
I suppose the oldest tenant trick in the book is to deliberately leave hot water running so as to jack up a landlord's heating costs. Any good advice on how to combat this and document it? I currently have access to the apartment below (but won't for long) which I assume will help. And I'm not the least bit adverse to legal action, but am wondering exactly how to extract proof of the situation.
Comments
Wow - your tenant is a douche
Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 23, 2009 3:00 PM
there's nothing illegal about it though. if a tenant is paying rent and the heat and hot water are included, they can leave the water running all day and night if they want.
maybe they have OCD and are washing their hands all the time too.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 23, 2009 3:00 PM
Why won't you have access to an aprtment in a building that you own???
Did you ask them why they leave it on, assuming you know that they do??
Have you gone in and found it running for no apparent reason when they are not there?? And shut it off?? What is the tenants' response???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 23, 2009 3:03 PM
The question I have is...How do you know they are leaving the water on? Are you spying on your tenants? If so, that may be why they are leaving the water running.
Posted by: cillmylandlord_again at October 23, 2009 3:06 PM
I've never heard of it being done but I;m sure there are a**holes who would. My question is, why would they do it? Is it possible thre is a plumbing problem? Tell them you need to check- by law you are allowed access with proper notice and they can't refuse you to do repairs or maintenance.And can you shut the water off to their apartment or put them on a separate meter and tell them you're adding new charges to their rent? And then don't renew the lease. Get rid of them before it gets worse.
Posted by: bxgrl at October 23, 2009 3:08 PM
This aughta be good.
Dooshy move, of course. But those are usually the reaction to a previous dooshy move.
So, what was your doosh move, mister Landlord?
Posted by: MAT at October 23, 2009 3:17 PM
A landlord can bring a nuisance holdover if a tenant, a member of the tenant’s family, or a guest of the tenant engages in a continuous course of conduct which threatens the health, safety, or comfort of neighboring tenants or other building occupants. It is illegal to shut off their water, or lock them out, or take any number of other actions. You can read more at: http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/pdfs/Landlordbooklet.pdf
You can access free information in person at the Kings County Housing Court help center: http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/resourcecenter.shtml
Posted by: vinca at October 23, 2009 3:17 PM
Wouldn't the quarterly water bills show directionally what's going on? Assuming roughly same number of residents in apt?
Posted by: Johnny at October 23, 2009 3:22 PM
Re: Johnny's note: depending on the nature of the leak, a constantly running toilet can easily add $1,000 to your quarterly bill. The cost of heat probably pales next to the cost of water running constantly from a fully opened faucet: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/ways_to_save_water/index.shtml
Posted by: vinca at October 23, 2009 3:31 PM
If they don't cooperate, I'd turn off the water to that one apartment & tell them there appears to be a plumbing problem that you have to have repaired. You won't have to do it for long, probably under a day. If they continue to run the water keep doing the same thing.
Posted by: Arkady at October 23, 2009 3:40 PM
Op simply check your water meter in the basement when they are gone and if the needle is goig haywire because of activity you are protected by lease to investigate the entire building for leaks. Kick them out.
Posted by: jack slade at October 23, 2009 3:45 PM
There's a chance it's due to some kind of plumbing problem--I'd check to make sure the toilet doesn't have a bad seal or the faucets aren't leaking. Assuming, of course, you haven't already done that.
If you really suspect it's malicious, maybe try calling your plumber. They've probably seen this kind of situation before, and could have a suggestion about a fix (maybe some kind of limiter, which automatically shuts off the water after some pre-set time that it's been running). And they can tell you if Arkady's approach might work.
Posted by: bkrules at October 23, 2009 3:49 PM
Excellent call MAT. I wish I had thought of this technique for my dooshy former landlord on Bergen Street.
Posted by: bh1234 at October 23, 2009 3:55 PM
My neighbor left the water running because she wanted the rent controlled unit to be hers after her mother died. The city ruled against her. So she kept leaving the hot water on as revenge. So I and the neighbor below us often have no hot water.
SO I wrote an affidavit telling that I hear her running the water all night, which I did. 2 months later her dumb fucking ass got kicked out by the city marshal.
BTW - Rob you are a fucking idiot and destined to live in poverty because of your limited intelligence.
Posted by: crimsonson at October 23, 2009 3:57 PM
Have you actually confronted the tenant about this? This tenant could just be a jerk, but a more likely explanation is that the apartment isn't warm enough for the tenant.
My landlord keeps the heat kind of low, and when it gets too cold I just crank the stove on (which is a heck of a lot cheaper than using a space heater, but which I still pay for). If I felt like the landlord was being unreasonable with the heat (or if I were just particularly cheap and selfish), I'd run the shower instead.
Posted by: solidago at October 23, 2009 3:58 PM
You would be a fool to follow advice to turn off the tenant's water. By law, owners must provide hot water at a minimum constant temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit all year round. Make an appointment to enter the tenant's apartment with your plumber and examine all faucets and appliances for leaks. Repair as necessary, or certify that no leaks exist. Consult a knowledgeable attorney or the Help Desk at Housing Court for the precise method to notify the tenant about creating a nuisance condition, and take the necessary LEGAL course of action to address the problem.
Posted by: vinca at October 23, 2009 4:00 PM
For those that asked:
1) The tenant had become used to roof access in the building. However, when informed that liability (this is an unfinished roof with no stairway, just a latter) issues won't not allow that anymore, he stopped paying rent, alleging that he the apartment was worth less. I took him to court and won. He is angry. Maybe I was douchy, but I don't feel too bad about it.
2) You're right, it probably isn't illegal, but there is a clause in the lease calling for "due conservation of heat and water," which I believe is pretty standard.
3) Obviously RS tenant, so my hands are somewhat tied in terms of adding new charges.
4) I know he's doing it because the apartment below just became empty and while enacting repairs I heard the water running for over an hour. I knocked on the door. He answered clothed and perfectly dry. I could hear the water running, and he told me there was someone in the shower. Security cameras proved otherwise. When I confronted him, he suggested I take him to court again. The hot water ran for about two hours the next day.
5) I know I can take him to court, and will, but what I wonder is how you document constantly running water, from a practical perspective, or if there is a plumbing solution I am unaware of. It is difficult to simply use the water bill, because that applies to the whole building.
Posted by: jimmyoforange at October 23, 2009 4:01 PM
When I worked for a management company we would see this kind of think frequently.
We had several buildings with cat people who instisted that their cats would only drink from a running faucet so they left their faucets running 24 hours a day. We calculated this cost the owner $200 per month in water and sewer charges, and that was cold water.
We had an elderly tenant who would run the water for her bath and then forget and change her mind and go shopping or visit friends for the weekend not knowing that she had left the water on.
Something similar to your situation a guy would leave his hot water blasting. We found out when the waste line failed flooding out the tenant below. I remember the enamel had eroded clean off his cast iron tub from doing this for months/years.
If you want to check for "leaks" your water meter has a small rotating dial that indicates even the smallest of water flowing. Check it in the middle of the night.
Posted by: IMBY at October 23, 2009 4:07 PM
quote:
BTW - Rob you are a fucking idiot and destined to live in poverty because of your limited intelligence.
excuuuuuse me? all i said was that it's not inherently illegal. why dont you check YOURSELF
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 23, 2009 4:10 PM
IMBY is right,
the water meter has that little red triangle. if it is moving when there is nobody home or everyone is sleeping, there is either a leak or somebody is letting the water run.
I would take a video camera, document the time (perhaps 2:00 AM Tues.) and videotape the water meter running for a few hours into the morning.
That combined with the spike in historical water usage from the DEP should be more than enough proof of your tenant's sneaky ploy.
A reasonable judge will be more than glad to take your documentation into consideration as to whether this tenant is abusing his tenant rights.
Posted by: Legion at October 23, 2009 4:19 PM
at thet very least, this is socially irresponsible. i mean seriously, it's just so obnoxious to waste water like that out of spite. i can't believe that people leave their faucet running 24/7 for a cat that takes maybe a cup of water's worth of drinks per day. don't they sell things that aerate and respout the water for $25 in the skymall catalogue? skymall always sells the most random things.
Posted by: CG_ups at October 23, 2009 4:21 PM
Yes, there are several kinds of cat fountains - range in price from $20 to $65. The more expensive ones are quieter & don't spook wussy felines.
Posted by: Arkady at October 23, 2009 4:26 PM
btw, i wasn't saying the cat thing was out of spite, obviously the original poster's situation is different. pets are funny / picky about water. unless max is dying, he won't drink from anything except his own water bowl.
Posted by: CG_ups at October 23, 2009 4:29 PM
Vinca is correct. Dont be fool!! Plus I bet the shut off valves are near the fixtures in the apt.
I wouldnt wait till the late at night. I'd knock on every door and ask the tenants not use any water for 10 mins while you check the meter. Plus you mentioned "heating" it's the heating season and this is considered an emergency for the entire building.
Posted by: jack slade at October 23, 2009 4:30 PM
This should be a wake up call to any of you thinking of buying a building with RC/RS tenants. Many of them (but not all) have a deep seated sense of entitlement and don't understand the realities of the real world. Nor do they know how to behave in a typically civil, give-and-take manner as this example illustrates.
As far as documenting anything, the only thing I can think of is time stamped photos of the meter, assuming there is a separate one for that unit. Otherwise, just play hardball to the extent that you can within the law.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 23, 2009 4:38 PM
This must be the cat in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UTdhK0lwuw
Posted by: TownhouseLady at October 23, 2009 4:42 PM
quote:
This should be a wake up call to any of you thinking of buying a building with RC/RS tenants. Many of them (but not all) have a deep seated sense of entitlement and don't understand the realities of the real world.
uh.. the real world? im pretty sure they know more about the real world than people plonking down millions of dollars for riff raff property.! sheesh. ! no offense to you tho. but that comment is silly.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 23, 2009 4:43 PM
Rob - My apartments (that I rent out) have 2-zone heating w/ thermostats. One tenant would leave the heat full on even when he was away & didn't look at his gas bills for months. He thought there must be a leak because his bills were so high. That's reality?
Posted by: Arkady at October 23, 2009 4:48 PM
Yes, rob, that would be the real world of entitlement, feeding a the the tit of the government and scamming the system for every inch they can take...kind of like the people who faked abuse to get public housing that you ranted about the other day....same sort of people, more or less.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 23, 2009 4:51 PM
Even non RS?RC tenants can be bastards, dibs. I would check the links vinca posted- not even an RS/RC tenant is allowed to anything they damn well please. Document as much as possible when and how long the water runs. Check with the appropriate City Agency- maliciously wasting water may make your tenant liable to possible charges. You never know.
Posted by: bxgrl at October 23, 2009 4:52 PM
No roof access leads to this. What a thin veneer of humanity people have.
Posted by: infinitejester at October 23, 2009 4:55 PM
Oh, yeah, RS/RC, not fun. Only for masochists. But hey, Jimmy, since you have accepted the mission, what you have to do is get some help from the DEP on water usage. Then you need a lawyer. Consult with Marc Aronson on Smith Street. He is pretty annoying himself, but he has decades of experience with tenant/landlord law in NYS. You will get the definative story on what you can do and can't do within the law. Don't torture yourself. Get very cool and very organized.
Posted by: donatella at October 23, 2009 5:01 PM
Sorry, the real world of entitlement freely crosses class and profession, union and non-union, rent-regulated and free market, ownership and non-ownership, race, gender, ethnic origin and ability or disability. It's a character flaw and ridiculous to introduce into the equation of how to deal with a tenant creating a nuisance.
Posted by: vinca at October 23, 2009 5:03 PM
Jimmy of Orange -
Replace his water-faucet with a motion-activated one. What's he going to do, wave his hand under it for an hour to get back at you?
You even might be able to price in the "upgrade" to his monthly rent.
Posted by: chuck at October 23, 2009 5:05 PM
quote:
...kind of like the people who faked abuse to get public housing that you ranted about the other day....same sort of people, more or less.
good point good point!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 23, 2009 5:05 PM
I agree that non RS/RC tenants can be a pain in the ass too, bxgrl. I'm sure MM would agree too. :)
And yes, entitlement crosses all walks but once someone knows they are getting something on the cheap and THINK that all the laws are on their side, it more often than not enables further similar behaviour.
Lat down the law and threaten them with further legal action. Make their life as miserable as possible within the law if this behavior continues. It's your house. Explain that to them. I'm sure there are other violations that can be construed by the wording of the lease.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 23, 2009 5:10 PM
Replace his water-faucet with a motion-activated one. What's he going to do, wave his hand under it for an hour to get back at you?
Posted by: chuck at October 23, 2009 5:05 PM
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Aren't you glad you posted?
Posted by: infinitejester at October 23, 2009 5:13 PM
While you're documenting and blogging little Maria doesn't have fresh water to drink in the South America. Stop wasting our precious resources and close the faucet already. Call 311 and log in a complaint before you enter and request a copy to be sent to you.
Wait is there a "311" service in Orange?
Posted by: jack slade at October 23, 2009 5:14 PM
Man. Taking you at face value, your tenant wins the award for dooshbaggery.
And asshattery. People suck.
Posted by: MAT at October 23, 2009 5:17 PM
"BTW - Rob you are a fucking idiot and destined to live in poverty because of your limited intelligence."
Not intelligence, attitude.
Posted by: denton at October 23, 2009 5:29 PM
"Replace his water-faucet with a motion-activated one. What's he going to do, wave his hand under it for an hour to get back at you? "
how bout the shower??
Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 23, 2009 5:30 PM
"Replace his water-faucet with a motion-activated one. What's he going to do, wave his hand under it for an hour to get back at you? "
No, he'd just put a piece of tape over the sensor.
Posted by: surly at October 23, 2009 5:46 PM
all you need to do with motion activated plumbing is play with a few wires in the sensor box or underneath the plumbing. so that might not work, tho im betting the tenant aint the smartest crayon in the box. honestly sounds like a sociopath. if they really are RS RC youd THINK they'd do their BEST to be the perfect tenant, right? i know i would! i wouldnt want to make waves (ha! waves! get it?)
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 23, 2009 6:47 PM
Rob, I was going to defend you before, but I see people have fun busting your chops. I very much like the motion sensor faucet. A motion sensored shower would be even better. Keep him moving...
Posted by: donatella at October 23, 2009 6:58 PM
of course, all the greenies on this site realize these motion sensors run offa batteries, right?
Posted by: denton at October 23, 2009 7:13 PM
put a sub meter on his water line to document his actual usage compared to the whole. Done in small mixed use buildings for billing purposes. Easier to prove than photos...
Posted by: pig three at October 23, 2009 9:00 PM
Interesting exchange. What I don't understand are the numbers getting bandied about. I am a single guy, but still, I added up 2/12 YEARS of water bills-- roughly $770. I shower ever day. I wash dishes. I even had a contractor who once was running the water constantly for nearly a month. I don't understand claims of $1000 a month water bills for a single tenant.
mikez
Posted by: mikez at October 23, 2009 9:08 PM
Mikez: what I said was additional $1,000 to a QUARTERLY bill. I cite that amount from personal experience with young, entitled, NON-rent-regulated tenants who let their toilet run constantly for three months between bills without ever reporting or attempting to remedy the problem. Take a look at DEP's chart of leaks and their cost. It's eye-opening: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/ways_to_save_water/waterleak_wide.shtml
Posted by: vinca at October 23, 2009 10:40 PM
Your tenant is on the floor below you, I assume there is a basement below the tenants apartment.
Bring two dedicated lines (one for hot and the other for cold water) to the tenants apartment.
In the basement, install two sub meters onto the tenants lines (one for the hot water, the other for the cold water). Install a shut off valve on each line, thereby enabling you to shut off the tenants water if it continues to run. You will know that the water is running because you will see the triangle on the sub meter spinning. Keep a log of the meter readings so you will have proof in case the tenants calls the authorities. I am sure when they see the usage they will reprimand the tenant.
The cost of water/sewer charges has risen sharply. It now cost $6.63 for 100 cubic feet of water which is equivalent to 748 gallons.
The tenant can easily run up your bill several thousand dollars per month. Just look at the chart in the below url.
It is unfortunate that you are stuck with this tenant, follow the advice I gave you and you will save yourself lots of grief and money.
Good luck...
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/ways_to_save_water/waterleak_wide.shtml
Posted by: jre at October 24, 2009 9:53 PM
it is all sounds like more escalation of the situation with RS client. If you take him to the court for water, he will do something else.
Sounds like your tenant is passive-aggressive. He lives water running for 1-2hours. He goes to court and then pays the rent. Maybe he will get use to idea of not having the roof access and the thing will blow off?
Posted by: bobjohn at October 25, 2009 9:23 AM
how old is the tenant? if he's not 62, send him a notice of nonrenewal based upon user occupancy when his lease is up.
He will likely fight it. Then you can magnanimously offer to let him stay if he behaves himself.
Posted by: slick at October 25, 2009 8:08 PM
This is a matter for your attorney, you need to take legal action against the tenant. BTW, it is now possible to change the configuration of rental buildings so that tenants are responsible for paying for their own heat and hot water, but you have to reduce their rent. I would follow this course if possible (your attorney will explain the process) as the amount of the rent reduction is not nearly as much as it costs per apartment to provide heat and hot water - you will find it harder to attract good tenants to vacant apartments if you provide expensive to run heating appliances (avoid electric base board heating).
Posted by: bohuma at October 26, 2009 5:57 AM
Thanks, everybody - some very useful ideas, and I appreciate the input. I think a combination of legal action, a dedicated and monitored water meter, and what bohuma suggests is about the best I can hope for here.
Posted by: jimmyoforange at October 26, 2009 11:59 AM
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