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October 20, 2009
Steam Heat on Top Floor
Please help figure out my steam-heat system. If you, or someone you know of someone who can help solve this problem, please send them my way.
Situation:
3rd floor of a 3-story building gets little heat.
Steam heat.
Radiators on each floor.
Thermostat is on 1st floor.
Thermostat on first floor is set to 74 degrees, and the 1st and 2nd floors get to that temperature very quickly.
The 3rd floor only goes to 70 degrees after about an hour or more. The 1st floor needs to keep a door opened to let in cold air (even in the most freezing times of winter) to keep the thermostat thinking its cold inside so that the heat stays on so that the 3rd floor gets heat!
This is a waste of heat and money.
After some research, (I think that) the issues to (perhaps) consider include:
Should the risers be insulated?
How much water needs to be in the boiler?
Why would moving the thermostat to the 3rd floor help? It would still burn the same amount of gas to get the proper heat on the 3rd floor, right? Explain please why this would make proper sense.
Why are there two pressuretrols on my boiler? (are they both necessary or did someone else do a bad job on the installation?)
I've been told the pressure on the boiler should be low. But exactly what should the pressure be on a steam heat system (in PSI) and what should the differential be in PSI?
Should I remove a radiator or two from the first floor?
Thank you to all of you who have called thus far (I had this posted elsewhere). I have had perhaps half a dozen plumbers and heating 'experts' call me and tell me to just play with and change the valves on the radiators.
'Playing with the valves' is not the answer, however. The valves are clean, and of the correct sizing on each floor.
Nor is increasing the pressure on the pressuretrol(s). The pressure is low as it should be. Making it higher is not the solution as far as I know. The pressure has been increased before to no avail.
Thank you so much.
Dave
seven one eight - three one two - nine four seven one
Comments
I had the same problem. To tell the truth, it is still a little bit of an issue but it is better. I had Hlad Plumbing come in and they told me that I should have a valve on the 1st and parlor floor (where the thermostat is) which releases less steam than those on the higher floors. This is to slow the heating of the room where the thermostat is and to allow heat to rise to the upper apartments. I was told also that at this time of year (always an issue in fall), that the boiler doesn't not stay on very long since it is not so cold outside (i.e. stays on pretty continuously when it is cold) and the heat sometimes simply doesn't get through the entire system. It is better since we changed the valves. The tenant also had a poorly sealed A/C in there, and it is always an issue of finding a guy to take it out and down the stairs (it is HEAVY). But I think part of the problem is that there are skylights up there and they are leaky. I have a plug-in radiator for her which warms up oil inside of it and it is a good and safe source of heat until we get over the transition. If you learn something else in the process, I'd love to hear it. It is something I would also like to rectify without turning my ground floor into a sweat box.
Posted by: donatella at October 20, 2009 2:51 PM
www.heatinghelp.com
Check recent brownstoner archives. Several recent threads on this.
1. You say valves, Do you mean vents? The thingies on the far end of each radiator? Are you using gorton D vents on the top floor and 4s and 5s on the lower floor?
1a. Are all the valves (the knob at the base of the radiator) turned all the way open?
2. Insulating the risers on the lower floors will help marginally, by reducing heat radiation where the thermostat is and saving heat for the top floor. But this won't solve the problem completely.
3. How's the insulation on the top floors? Are any walls cold to the touch? Any drafty window frames or electric outlets? Are side walls exposed (i.e., is your buildng taller than those around it)? If so, ddeal with teh drafts and insulation issues, but you may also need to reconsider radiator size on the top floor?
4. Are all the radiators heating up more or less together (slight delay on top floor) or do top radiators stay cool for a long time. If the latter, then playing with vent sizes should help. If the former, then you need to rethink radiator sizes.
5. Download a radiator sizing chart from heatinghelp.com. You may have oversized radiators downstairs and/or undersized on the top floor. And if you have insulation issues, you may need to compensate slightly.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 20, 2009 2:58 PM
I've checked heating help and will do so again, but I need onsite help in addition to a website's help. Likewise with Brownstoner posts. Is there someone you've used that you liked?
1. Yes, I meant the Gorton Vents (5, 6, D, etc...) Apologies.
1a. The valves are all the way open.
2. OK, I'll do this.
3. Building is same height as those on either side. Windows are ok, but I'm going to put that plastic film on them for whatever that is worth. Is that worth something?
4. I have the correct vents as far as I know (And as far as other plumbers have told me upon inspection). But top radiators do stay cool for a while.
5. OK, I'll do this.
Posted by: Thirteenth Street at October 20, 2009 3:08 PM
13 -- Like donatella, we use John Hlad. Like she says, it is hard to diagnose the problem during the in between season, when heat is intermittent. But if 1st floor radiators are oversized, you may be heating up too fast by the thermostat.
I haven't done the window film. But do check any outlets on an exterior wall and check to see if top floor front and back walls or ceiling are cold to the touch. You can get insulation pads for the outlets at Lowe's.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 20, 2009 3:33 PM
OK Lets go point by point....
Should the risers be insulated?
- No. Believe it or not they are acting as radiators and the thermal loss is doing very little to take away from what is getting to the radiators.
How much water needs to be in the boiler?
- Depends on the boiler. Should be no more than 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up the gauge glass on the front of your boiler. Your low water cut-off will tell you when it is too low. More water only means less space for steam. And the steam you do produce will be wet and contain less BTUs/pound.
Why would moving the thermostat to the 3rd floor help? It would still burn the same amount of gas to get the proper heat on the 3rd floor, right? Explain please why this would make proper sense.
-This would only allow for a longer burn before the boiler shuts off. More flame means more fuel means less money in your pocket, period. You will be cooking the first and second floor just to get heat to the third floor. This is NOT a good solution. Try the second floor and also try playing with the anticipator setting on your t-stat before moving it at all.
Why are there two pressuretrols on my boiler? (are they both necessary or did someone else do a bad job on the installation?)
-If one pressuretrol has a red button, that is your manual reset pressuretrol. It is a safety device which we call the High Limit. It will open the burner circuit if the boiler pressure exceeds the pressuretrol setting.
I've been told the pressure on the boiler should be low. But exactly what should the pressure be on a steam heat system (in PSI) and what should the differential be in PSI?
-Two pounds is more than sufficient for your building.
Should I remove a radiator or two from the first floor?
-No.
Fix any drafts, most definitely play with the air vents on the lower and upper floors and this should solve your problem. Insulating the main down in your basement will help too. Oh and check the air vent down in the basement at the bottom of the riser that is giving you a problem. Most likely it is plugged up and the steam isn't getting from the boiler to that side of your building fast enough. Good luck and let me know what happens.
Steam Man has spoken.....
Posted by: SteamMan at October 20, 2009 4:12 PM
Steam man,
The point of insulating the risers is to get them to stop acting as radiators on the floor that is heating up too fast -- i.e., where the thermostat is. Hopefully, this will slow down the first floor reaching the theromostat temp and give the top floor radiators a little more time to heat up before the boiler cycles off.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 20, 2009 4:17 PM
SteamMan I tried calling you at MMMW, and I got the voicemail.
Please contact me if you or someone you know of would be willing to come onsite to inspect and fix.
Dave
seven one eight-312-9471
Posted by: Thirteenth Street at October 20, 2009 4:48 PM
Could one of the problems be as simple as the fact that the asbestos insulation in the basement on the pipe that runs 45' from the boiler room in the back to the very front of the building was removed and never replaced with anything else? I was told by the asbestos-removal company that it didn't need to be replaced! Stupid me - someone put the insulation there in the first place for a reason, but some people tell me its simply so that you don't get burned when you're near it. Is that true?
Posted by: Thirteenth Street at October 20, 2009 5:08 PM
My opinion is that steam is an unforgiving system of heating. There are too many variables to accurately answer your questions here although Steam Man knows what he's talking about and has offered solid replies.
You've already listed several individually valid causes for your heating imbalance and yours will not be a quick fix. What no one seems to have addressed that I can tell is the compatibility of your existing boiler to your system.
Just as the measurement of any volume of water can be expressed in gallons or pints, the volume of steam is measured in square feet. A heating system can process, i.e. convey and condense, only a finite and specific amount of steam which is determined by the surface area of the exposed piping and radiators. The output of the heating plant, or boiler, must match that value as closely as possible, best within about ten percent.
I'm willing to bet you've got a boiler big enough for one-and-a-half of your heating systems that short cycles when called for heat and squeezes steam into the first floor's piping and radiators like commuters on a 5pm F train.
You need a full evaluation of your heating system, which, done well, should cost you some money. Otherwise, you'll never know the whole story.
...and...as luck would have it...
That is a service my company performs. In fact I do it personally.
Just saying.
Me:
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
Posted by: Master Plvmber at October 20, 2009 6:17 PM
like mp said, you are probably short cycling, i.e. the boiler is meeting pressure before the steam has a chance to meet the top floor's needs...you probably need to resize the vents on all floors... i would highly recommend gateway, since they are a really knowledgeable outfit, or i can take a look for a pro bono consultation..if interested email me @ errol832000@yahoo.com
Posted by: eman1234 at October 20, 2009 8:40 PM
Master Plumber,
I called to schedule an appointment. The earliest Gateway can come is exactly a week from now; good in that it shows that your company is busy, bad in that its a week from now.
I've used Gateway before, (last year) and as I recall a few men came and inspected the valves and put in new ones. This did NOT solve the problem unfortunately, but I presume was a start.
If you know of a way to get someone trustworthy and knowledgeable onsite sooner, please assist.
Thank you.
Dave
My phone is seven one eight-312-9471
Posted by: Thirteenth Street at October 20, 2009 8:41 PM
Give Hlad a call. He helped me. My issue now relates to drafty skylights I think... It's always something...
Posted by: donatella at October 20, 2009 9:26 PM
So, if my guys came and did something that didn't solve the problem, why didn't you call and state that? Balancing is a often a process and there is rarely ever a quick fix, as I said.
Anyway, you've called a lot of plumbers and are asking for more because you prefer not to wait a week. I strongly suggest you pick a heating contractor you trust and give him some room to do his thing.
For the record, we've got a lot of people calling with no heat/hot water or need boiler replacements now before it gets too cold. We have to prioritize them over balancing and maintenance issues.
Thanks for calling.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at October 20, 2009 10:22 PM
Sounds to me like the biggest issue is the size of the openings on the vents (which is probably what was meant by "playing with the vents" - not cleaning them. If you have vents with smaller openings on the lower floors and bigger openings on higher floors (or just farther from the boiler), that should serve to even out the heat. The steam is essentially pulled toward the bigger escape openings. The less expensive vents out there have a fixed size opening, but there are some variable sized opening vents on the market. If you get the variable ones, you can play around with how big the openings are until you get the optimal balance.
Good luck.
Posted by: UWS2 at October 21, 2009 1:02 PM
Replace the air vents at the bottom of your risers with Gorton Air Eliminators (don't let their cartoonish size scare you), and replace the valves on your third floor with Varivalves - they blow the doors off of even the biggest Gorton vents for getting steam to far away places. If you want to get fancy, and/or you have issues with one side of the house getting too hot due to sun exposure, consider Danfoss adjustable vents for the lower floors, which have a control knob with numbers which makes it easy to adjust on the fly.
You may want to have masterplvmer come by to make sure there is nothing ridiculous going on, but eventually the only way to get it right is by changing up the valves yourself until the balance is just so - and it takes time to work it out so that it's stable over a variety of outside temps.
Posted by: wyckoff at October 21, 2009 1:39 PM
I had similiar problems and installed vari-valves in an attempt to get the top floor warm without overheating the lower floors. It was slightly better but not great. Finally after the external gas igniter (it was an oil boiler converted to gas)died, my plumber suggested changed the boiler which I did. I had mistakenly assumed that the boiler is merely a large pot of water and really didn't need replacing. Was I wrong! After the new boiler the qaulity of the heat was so much improved. No more spikes between too cold and too hot - quick repsonse time - more even heat and better distribution. The top floor is still not as warm as the lower floors but it is a vast improvement. There is also no more clanking as the rising steam fights with the condensate going down.
Posted by: jmcg at October 22, 2009 2:45 PM
Sizing the boiler to the system has a lot to do with how well the whole thing will work in the future.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at October 22, 2009 2:56 PM
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