Forum
« Solar Hot Water, High-Efficiency II Floor Deck »
October 1, 2009
Non-Payment of Rent
Greetings Brownstoners,
I am in the uncomfortable situation of having to deal with tenants who refuse to pay rent. There is nothing wrong with the apt. and their reasons are personal (rather not get into it here). So am considering non-payment proceedings.
But I have heard that courts favor the tenant. It seems like a clear case to me, but I'd like to hear what others have experienced.
Also, if anyone has an excellent attorney to recommend I'd greatly welcome the referral.
Comments
Susan Cornicello - don't have her contact info but you can google her. Good luck.
Posted by: StuyMom at September 30, 2009 9:39 PM
You didn't say how long. If its 30, 60+ days, you need to file the forms either through your lawyer or down at the courthouse asap.
Posted by: Crownlfc at September 30, 2009 11:52 PM
A few more details would help..
1. Is the apartment rent stabilized or free market?
2. Is the apartment legal?
3. Does the tenant have a lease?
4. Is the tenant new to the building?
5. Are all occupants gainfully employed?
If the apartment is legal, not stabilized and the tenants reside there on a month to month (no lease) basis, skip the nonpayment and go for a holdover.
I would also suggest that you take a ride over to 141 Livingston Street and search the court computer to see if the same tenants have had prior evictions. If yes, requisition the court files and review them. The files will tell you who you are dealing with, i.e. a veteran non payer, one who will damage your apartment and file complaint after complaint so as to justify them not paying.
In the Court files, you will also be able to find their former landlords names as well as the attorney who represented the former landlord. My suggestion is for you to speak with their former landlord. You may decide to use the former landlord’s attorney.
The courts are full of tenants who use the system to manipulate the landlord. These tenants are for the most part judgment proof; they have no assets, nothing to lose. They live in an apartment until they get evicted then move on to victimize another naive landlord.
If you cover all bases, you should be able to limit your losses.
I wish you good luck.
Posted by: jre at October 1, 2009 4:31 AM
I had one pretty terrible tenant who overstayed her lease and I had to start eviction proceedings. JRI made some good points particularly about whether you will receive money even if you win. I could write a book here but call Marc Aronson with offices on Smith Street, who can guide you through this. Then, when and if you get rid of these people, the important part starts. You can avoid all this nonsense in the future by doing a thorough check on tenants up front before you rent to them -- i.e. get the full scoop on thier work, rental, credit, and litigation history and have a nice talk about how rule number #1 is getting rent on the 1st. Good luck.
Posted by: donatella at October 1, 2009 7:03 AM
My cousin had to evict his tenant. It took a few months, cost him but at least he now has tenants that pay rent.
Posted by: italiana71 at October 1, 2009 8:44 AM
JRE's questions and suggestions are excellent. The answers will determine how
best to proceed. Also important to understand is JRE's point that the system is easily manipulated. Consequently, even if your case is strong and you are ultimately successful, it's likely that much money and many months will be spent at the effect of manipulation by the tenants and attorney representing them. Whether you represent yourself or retain an attorney, the success of your case relies not only on its merit, but on meeting the court's requirements completely and precisely. I'm glad Donatella had success with Marc Aronson, but for a number of reasons strongly suggest you look elsewhere. Find a firm that represents landlords alone. You might also want to review: http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/pdfs/Landlordbooklet.pdf
Posted by: vinca at October 1, 2009 9:38 AM
You're in for a long process. If your tenants are looking for a buyout you should negotiate that with them through an atorney, that is probably the fastest and ultimately the cheapest way to go. The courts only evict after they have explored every altenative and put the owner thropugh the ringer, this is not a landlord-friendly city. It's a huge pain, you will wonder why anyone bothers to pay their rent.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 1, 2009 10:15 AM
I know quite a few landlords who have tenants that are not paying the rent now. It's a terrible situation. If your tenant is truly financially unable to pay their rent, refer them to the Human Resource Administration (HRA). If they can show that they don't have the money to do it, the city may temporarily pay you the rent directly. I know it doesn't fix things long term, but at least you'll see some money.
Posted by: liexpat at October 1, 2009 10:48 AM
Good Luck, not much to add as Poster jre has given you some golden advice. There are habitual "movers" out there who know how to work the system down to the last detail, they will eventually move out, usually in the middle of the night, once they know that the court supported time frames condoning their chicanery are drawing to a close. Going forward, proper credit checks may save you some heartache.
Posted by: Crescent Hill at October 1, 2009 11:01 AM
is there a way you can switch them over into section 8 tenancy? then at least youd be guaranteed a large portion of your rent, up to 2200 dollars. are they poor and cant afford the rent? did they just lose their job or something? are they just professional leeches? there's too many variables you left out for anyone to steer you in any one direction other than probably get a lawyer.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 11:07 AM
I have never heard of the city paying anyone's rent in a private building. They will, in extreme cases, give you real estate credits off your taxes, but that's all I ever heard being done.
At the moment, the courts are extremely reluctant to evict anyone from their rental home. Ultimately it will come down to a buy-out. that's what most Brooklyn "evictions" really are. It's not great for the home-owner. Everyone with good tenants should be grateful.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 1, 2009 11:11 AM
I know of a landlord whose rent-stabilized tenant has NEVER paid the rent without at least being served legal papers (most often having to drag her into court) in the four years he has owned the building. She apologizes, coughs up the rent (often with the aid of the taxpayer) and starts the cycle again.
He served eviction papers in February, and she pleaded mental disability ("depression"). The landlord is still waiting for a decision (after 2 months) on his motion for summary judgment.
She offered to vacate voluntarily in return for $250K.
Posted by: gee_blee at October 1, 2009 11:21 AM
quote:
I have never heard of the city paying anyone's rent in a private building. They will, in extreme cases, give you real estate credits off your taxes, but that's all I ever heard being done.
moron, i mean minard, do you KNOW how section 8 works? any landlord who owns any sized building can make it section 8 if they choose. section 8 is ALL private owned buildings, duh. it's not affiliated with the new york city housing authority (which deal with city projects) section 8 is a federal program. it's what has turned thousands of suburbs across america into the new ghettos.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 11:25 AM
Rob, you're suggesting that someone turn their private home into section 8 housing? And you're calling me a moron?
PS: That's an awful thing to call someone by the way.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 1, 2009 11:31 AM
Minard (or I ask again, is it Sam), there are a very large number of private homes in NYC that accept Section 8 tenants. I notice your posts tend toward sweeping pronouncements of doom and gloom for the LL and buyouts for the tenants. Just curious, have you ever been in housing court yourself?
Posted by: vinca at October 1, 2009 11:36 AM
no im not advising them to do that, duh. it's just an option if they cant get them out, i dont know. sorry didnt mean to call you that.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 11:38 AM
The Human Resources Administration (aka welfare) will pay someone with an open Public Assistance case a monthly rent stipend of a very low amount. Ten years ago it was something like $200/month, and I doubt that it's increased much. If your tenant has a family with a child, they might qualify for Jiggetts relief, which would up the rental payment to around $550/month. (If the recipient is not paying the rental stipend, the landlord can ask that HRA cut a check directly to him.) And sometimes HRA will grant an applicant a "One Shot Deal," (i.e., pay a couple thousand in arrears) if the tenant can show she got behind (when lost a job, etc.), but has the ability to pay the full amount of the rent in the future. Somehow, though, I doubt any of these apply to your situation.
One word of advice: do not lock the tenants out. Period. You'll create even more problems (including potential jail time for yourself) than a non-pay or holdover case in housing court.
Posted by: talknerdytome at October 1, 2009 11:40 AM
Sorry to see this post is turning a little ugly...
Minard I'm with you, The last thing you want to do, as a small portfolio owner, is go Section 8 on your properties. I knew a man who had to be hospitalized for nervous condition after dealing with a particular Sec 8 tenant in a multi family building he owned. He eventually sold the place because he feared continued ownership would result in his premature death. I do not want to condemn the program, because it does work out for many, however, I would not suggest it as a fix for a first time non payment issue.
Posted by: Crescent Hill at October 1, 2009 11:52 AM
I appreciate everyone's postings but would like to get the discussion back on track. First, it is a free market apt with a legal signed lease. Second, the tenant does not live there now and refuses to pay what they owe from before and help look for a new tenant. And third, money for them is not a problem. They had excellent credit, money aplenty in the bank, and assets. In short, I think they are just taking advantage of a personal situation.
In addition to Marc Aronson are there other landlord/tenant lawyrers to recommend? Thanks much!
Posted by: janus125 at October 1, 2009 12:08 PM
I've used Eliezer Kraus on several occasions. His law practice is all tenant/landlord based and he will be able to provide a quick evaluation if your case is worth pursuing. Are you more interested in keeping the tenant and getting your back rent or are you willing to forgive some of the rent due and get your apartment back. I recommend the latter. Kraus phone number is : (718) 677-9523
Posted by: bergenbabe at October 1, 2009 12:24 PM
Are you talking about a broken lease? Meaning they stopped paying rent and moved out?
Posted by: setancre at October 1, 2009 12:27 PM
Janus: Just want to mention that if you do proceed with eviction proceedings right away, this will be on their record for the next landlord who may search LT court records and decide against accepting them and therefore taking them off your hands. I would start with a strongly-worded letter from an attorney.
Or, is there a way to embarrass them into paying? For example, if they have an Assistant who answers their phones at the office or if calls go through a switchboard, leave a detailed message about you needing to collect all of the back rent that they owe you or you will begin legal proceedings.
Just a thought - not a very mature one but it may work.
Posted by: bedstuytownhouse at October 1, 2009 12:30 PM
So janus, this is a broken lease case? Moved out mid-term and stopped paying? How many months left, how high is the rent and how much security do you have? Question is how much money is at stake and whether this is worth litigating. A pure money case, rather than how to deal on an ongoing basis with noncompliant tenants. Keep good records to show you are working hard to fill the place.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 1, 2009 12:30 PM
A broken lease in Brooklyn? In pragmatic terms, you should just rent it out to someone else and move on. Not satisfying in terms of justice, or even in legal terms, but this is the reality of the situation.
You can try to go after them, but from what I've seen you will probably lose money and time and hair in the deal. And likely never recover anything from them at all.
Posted by: northridger at October 1, 2009 12:46 PM
I've used Eliezer Kraus on several occasions. His law practice is all tenant/landlord based and he will be able to provide a quick evaluation if your case is worth pursuing. Are you more interested in keeping the tenant and getting your back rent or are you willing to forgive some of the rent due and get your apartment back. I recommend the latter. Kraus phone number is : (718) 677-9523
Posted by: bergenbabe at October 1, 2009 12:48 PM
If I understand you- they are not living in the apartment? Is their stuff still in it? If they are gone and no longer paying rent, that should constitute a broken lease. They sound awful (and I speak as a tenant myself)- you're well rid of them and will only lose time and money in courts.
Posted by: bxgrl at October 1, 2009 12:51 PM
This is a case of breaking the lease. We have a month and a half deposit and are doing our damndest to fill the place but it is a tough market out there. And until we find someone else feel that they are obligated to pay the rent since we both freely signed the lease.
Posted by: janus125 at October 1, 2009 12:54 PM
Janus125 - legally you're right.
But in practical terms, you're not going to be getting anything from a court in this situation. The fact that there's no back rent involved clinches it. Not to sound cruel, but there are judges out there who would most likely laugh you out of court.
Not very fair to the landlord, but that's the way it works in NYC.
Posted by: northridger at October 1, 2009 1:02 PM
wow. You could have saved a lot of posters from huffing and puffing if you had been more clear about your situation. Long and short: People suck, seems you are screwed, and sadly it's the risk you take being Mister Landlord.
Posted by: MAT at October 1, 2009 2:22 PM
Janus- courts may favor tenants in that they don't want to evict people, but you should not have a problem getting back rent and other money damages if you have a signed lease that was not paid. you may have trouble enforcing it, but i bet once you get a judgment your former tenant will pay up if they do have the assets.
Posted by: cortnyc at October 1, 2009 2:28 PM
What you have is a tenant who is trying to manipulate you into letting them off the hook.
My suggestions is for you to gather enough evidence that they vacated and settle up with an attorney to do the eviction for a flat fee.
You should also do the following.
1. Track down where they moved to.
2. Check if the tenant terminated their accounts with the electric, telephone, cable, internet and gas companies.
3. Check if their mail is being forwarded and to what address.
4. Enter the apartment and take pictures of its current condition.
Once you have all or much of the above. Hire Eliezer Kraus 718-677-9523 for a flat fee to do the legal work. Remember, any monies paid to the attorney will most likely not be re-couped.
When you appear in Court, do not settle. In this Court, settlement means forfeiting most or all of what is due you. Usually landlords do that when the tenant is still in possession. But your tenant is out of possession and the judge in your case will not force you into giving up any monies in exchange for the tenant vacating.
Good chance that the tenant, especially if they have a day job, will not spend the day in court and you will get possession on default.
The Court process in your case should take approximately 8-12 weeks.
After you gain legal possession, continue to look for a tenant.
Once you found a tenant, commence an action in Court to recover the money you are entitled to under the terms of your lease.
Good luck...
Posted by: jre at October 1, 2009 2:38 PM
One more suggestion.
If the former tenant will give you a note stating that they vacated the apartment and authorize you to locate another tenant, (It is in their interest to give you this letter) you can skip the landlord tenant lawyer, just look for a new tenant, sign a lease with the new tenant, calculate your losses and hire an attorney to commence an action for damages suffered.
Some attorneys may do that for a small fee plus a contingency.
Good luck...
Posted by: jre at October 1, 2009 2:53 PM
JRE: Your advice has been most helpful. Thanks very much for your excellent suggestions.
Posted by: janus125 at October 1, 2009 2:59 PM
jre...if he finds a tenant soon most likely his loses will be zero. He might even make money off of the deposit! So what exactly will an attorney go after?
If he doesn't find a tenant soon....then you have two problems in litigating. First, they may very well fight it, and have a good chance of winning in this environment. Then the case will go on much longer in housing court, and he may well lose in this environment. While it's going on he has to prove he's been actively trying to fill the space.
If you do somehow miraculously come through and win, over several months, you then have the job of actually collecting the money. Good luck on that!
I guess a question is...where is the apartment and why is it so difficult to find a new tenant? As usual, there's only one side of the story being told here :-) Yeah, maybe the tenants are scum. Or maybe the LL is being a bit greedy here looking for easy money. Who can tell?
Posted by: northridger at October 1, 2009 4:16 PM
nr -- that's why I asked about the # of months remaining on the lease, the amount of security held on deposit, and efforts to locate new tenants. Hard to tell if this is a $1000 problem or a $10000 problem. Makes a big diff if one is thinking about court.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 1, 2009 4:43 PM
Janus, it would have been helpful if you explained that they moved out already in your initial question. As someone who's familair with Landlord/Tenant court, and has been in this situation myriad times this year alone, it is not worth taking them to Court. Yes, hire a lawyer to write them a letter because sometimes threatening tenants with lawyer letters and talks of eviction proceedings scare them into paying. However, most of the time, it does nothing, and you wind up spending a decent amount of money to fight a losing battle that only takes up your time and energy.
Just to let you know though, if you do re-rent the apartment within their lease period, for a lesser amount of money, they are responsible for the difference in rent until their lease is up( if you chose to take them to Court).
Posted by: Cobblehillbaby at October 1, 2009 5:54 PM
Are you kidding? You made it sound like they are still living there and not paying rent. Let it go and move on.
Posted by: bedstuytownhouse at October 1, 2009 8:21 PM
I agree with all the posters who said not to bother with trying to get the money they owe you. The court system is totally skewed and it will be a major pain and expense that will almost certainly get you nothing in return. You are lucky that they moved out. Ridiculous as that may sound, many other landlords have tenants who don't pay and refuse to leave (I dealt with this myself). As an aside, I heard there is a website called badtenants.com and if you want to get revenge you can post something negative about them there.
Posted by: Kate at October 1, 2009 8:48 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.