Forum
« 24x80 door Rubber Tiles on Roof »
October 13, 2009
Negotiating Rent Reduction
My lease is up in December, and although I would like to stay in my current apartment, I will need to negotiate a rent reduction with my landlord in order to make that possible.
I live in a rental building with three units, all with almost identical floorplans. I live in the top floor unit, which is a 6 story walk up. The other two lower floor apartments were rented 1-2 months after I signed my lease, for about 12% less than what I am currently paying. At most, I do not want to pay more than the other tenants. In any case, I think that I can do better elsewhere, and although I hate to go through the hassle of moving, I will move if I can't get the rent reduced. My changed financial position during the last year, along with unexpectedly high heating and cooling bills in the apartment make this a necessity.
I was wondering if anyone has had luck recently with negotiating a rent reduction, and if so, how you approached it - did you put your request in writing, provide other apartment listings to show similar apartments, discuss your personal financial concerns, or just keep it simple? The situation is somewhat complicated by the fact that my landlord can be really nutty - he once repeatedly cursed at me and screamed "I'm not your slave" into the phone at me when I called to report that water was pouring through the ceiling and I requested his help, and then a few days later approached me on the street wanted to coo over my baby and pinch his cheeks. Needless to say, I don't want to get into another screaming match with him.
Many thanks for any advice.
Comments
Find another place with the rent you desire to pay then tell your landlord" This is my offer, take it or leave it". In case he says no move to the other place.
Posted by: hannible at October 13, 2009 1:46 PM
if he is a bit nutty, unpredicitable mood, I would write him a letter, telling how much you like the apt. and how wonderful he is but because of your change in financial circumstances can only afford x$ per month this coming year.
And will me forced to move because can't pay more....
DOn't use word reduction or mention you know what others are paying.
Posted by: Petebklyn at October 13, 2009 1:48 PM
I agree with both the above suggestions. Definitely have another option first, and then write a letter. As a landlord, I'd be more likely to respond favorably to the tone Petebklyn espouses, rather than the "take it or leave it" route. But if the guy in question is wacky, you never know I guess.
Posted by: henrycurtis at October 13, 2009 1:55 PM
Thanks for your advice - I've been debating whether to let him know that I know what the other tenants are paying - or whether that even matters. Do you think that it is best to start with a lower offer or just be clear with what my limit is?
Posted by: snowbunny at October 13, 2009 2:01 PM
I agree, but don't feel like you are being taken advantage of. The higher floor always commands greater rent than a lower floor, even with the same floor plan. Check out pricing on any condo for sale or rent - they all have the same floor plan and the higher you go the pricier it gets. You get better views and the top floor doesn't hear footsteps all day. Maybe not worth 12% to you, but it can be worth it for others.
Posted by: diego at October 13, 2009 2:05 PM
The higher floor pays higher rent when there is an elevator. In a walk-up, all other things being equal, rent decreases with each set of stairs.
Posted by: Maly at October 13, 2009 2:14 PM
You are best off, I think, sticking to yuor own situation and having a upper limit that you are willing to stick to (in case any bargaining breaks out). Each tenant's lease is separate, and usually comparing them is not productive. In addition to top floors typically being a little more (unless a garden is involved), you should take into account that apartments rented at different times can vary, depending on the market prices.
Posted by: henrycurtis at October 13, 2009 2:19 PM
So wait, should a walk-up 6th floor apartment be worth more than the lower floor apartments? We do have a better view, but it is a haul up those stairs, especially with kids, groceries, packages, trash, etc.
Posted by: snowbunny at October 13, 2009 2:43 PM
I think it is impossible to generalize. The top floor may have a view. It may be a very busy street whereby the bottom floors would be less desireable. etc etc. The things you mention do make top floor walk ups a hassle, I agree. Kids especially!
Posted by: henrycurtis at October 13, 2009 2:57 PM
Funny, we have been doing anything we can in this current economic climate to keep our tenants. I honestly think you have the upper hand in this case. It's so much more productive to keep someone in a unit than try to flip it. You have to clean, paint most likely, and then advertise and show it.
I'd stick to the letter writing though I think with your particular situation. However, if I were your landlord, I'd want to keep you there.
Posted by: hooky at October 13, 2009 3:14 PM
lol how do you know how much other tenants pay? only in NYC do people think it's cool to find out what other people pay. MYOB!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 13, 2009 3:17 PM
I know how much the other tenants pay bc we all moved into the building, which was new (a condo that didn't sell), at the same time, and we all had a lot of problems initially (leaking ceilings, broken stairs, separating floor boards, bizarre heating situation, unresponsive landlord, astronomical utility bills) that led to a lot of comparing notes, which eventually led to comparing rents. I agree, only in NYC.
Posted by: snowbunny at October 13, 2009 3:22 PM
Rule of thumb for RE agents is rent goes down $50 per floor in a walk up; can go up $100 per floor in an elevator building.
Posted by: babs at October 13, 2009 3:25 PM
You're in a sixth floor walk-up with a baby, the landlord is bipolar, and you pay the heating bills? There may be better apartments out there for you.
Posted by: buttermilk channel at October 13, 2009 3:33 PM
December is a terrible time to try and rent out an apartment. The LL is pretty much guaranteed to have it sitting empty for a month. I wouldn't mention it to him, but you should know that the timing on this strengthens your hand.
And I'd look at other apartments so you have a sense of what the market is. I would not expect to find a place and then approach the landlord and have the place still be there once you got an answer from him. There will probably be a bit of back and forth and you don't need the added pressure of losing a place you like.
Posted by: bkrules at October 13, 2009 5:34 PM
So let me get this Diego I live on the 4th floor of a Brownstone and I have to pay more because? I get less polltion from the Gowanus or because I get more exersise taking the food and trash up and down?
Posted by: hannible at October 13, 2009 6:27 PM
6th Floor Walkup should be SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than the other units in the building, and certainly not more expensive by any means.
If you give some more specifics on where the building is exactly, sq footage, room size, amenities (dishwasher, 2 baths, washer/dryer) I can give you a basic rental appraisal on how much it would rent for if your landlord had it on the market for in December (which is a bad time for your landlord to try and rent it, since almost all apartments look better when its bright, sunny, and warmer outside).
I'd say a rent reduction is definitely likely, but also, things are cheaper everywhere these days, so maybe a move wouldnt be so bad. At least you couldn't possibly end up on a higher walkup.
Posted by: pointslope at October 13, 2009 7:14 PM
Hi pointslope, thanks for your help. Apt is 3BR/2BA duplex, with DW, laundry room in apartment, and two decks. Sq footage was listed as 1500, not sure if that's quite true, but probably close. It's a pretty nice apartment (if you can live with new construction) with lots of windows (despite the fact that it fairly shoddily constructed, but since i'm renting i don't sweat it too much). It's located on Myrtle in Ft. Greene, about a very brisk 15 minute walk from the express subway lines on Flatbush.
Thanks!
Posted by: snowbunny at October 13, 2009 8:44 PM
Personally, I don't think you should give any indication that your personal financial circumstances have changed. What really matters is the change in market value and the fact that if you move out on December 31, it is quite likely that the apartment will be vacant for at least a month. I would also play up the hassle of walking up all those stairs. 15 minutes walk from the subway is a long way, which should reduce the market value. The landlord should absolutely know that moving out is a serious option for you. In this market a sixth floor walk up is going to be hard to rent.
Posted by: bohuma at October 13, 2009 9:27 PM
Ask for a reduction, but why should the landlord give it? Your changing circumstances shouldn't entitle you to a bailout by somebody who is probably in the same boat as you. What about his/her circumstances, like providing a safe, clean, warm, nice apartment to you with hot water and services. These cost money. Go see if you can find something better and if you can, ask him/her for a reduction but don't think this is due to you.
Posted by: donatella at October 13, 2009 9:51 PM
hey donatella, actually, we provide our own hot water and services, including paying electric for the hallways since the landlord stopped paying that bill. of course my circumstances don't entitle me to a bailout - they do, however, mean that i am going to move if i don't get a reduction, and i'd like to give my landlord, who may have trouble finding another tenant at the current cost, the chance to limit his damages. just asking for advice on how to approach the LL.
Posted by: snowbunny at October 13, 2009 9:57 PM
If the Landlord is that rude to you - simply move.
Posted by: Crownlfc at October 13, 2009 11:30 PM
My tenants approach me directly because I am a decent guy, and I respond to them courteously and promptly because I want them to be happy in their apartments. It makes for a better overall situation when the tenants are satisfied and don't hate the LL. Better for them, better for me.
In my opinion, your unpredictable LL is perhaps the biggest reason to move. Good luck. I have to say, though, your description of the apartment makes it sound pretty nice....
Posted by: henrycurtis at October 14, 2009 9:28 AM
A really nice landlord Donatella! Doesn't pay for steam hot water and hallway electricity. I would have stopped paying rent months ago to this self proclaimed slumlord. He is probably looking for the government to help him pay his mortgage while he continues collecting rent. Some people have no shame!
Posted by: hannible at October 14, 2009 10:28 AM
Hey There Snowbunny,
Depending on your cross street (how close to the park) can add a bit of value, nevertheless, this 6th fl walk up business is insane.
Since your utils are very much not included, and the apartment is so inefficient, and its new construction without the character that is popular in the neighborhood, I would say if the apartment was on a lower floor in this market it would go for $3500 on the high end, so your place should be no more than $3000, but it will be very difficult to find someone to move in immediately after you, losing a month for your landlord netting the rent down to $2750. I would say, if you were my client and the rent was any higher than $2600 I would suggest you evaluate your priorities and move elsewhere. You won't get the space in that location for that price, but you will lose the walkup and stop paying so much in utils. I'd really have to see the space to give it my total appraisal, but thats my 2 cents.
Posted by: pointslope at October 14, 2009 10:49 AM
Here's my 2 cents. I tried to negotiate a rent reduction on an apartment that had been below market in the boom but was actually at the market value in August of 2009. You can see my post if you look at the archives. I got a tiny reduction (not even the amount I asked for) which was basically a good faith effort on the part of my LL since I am the only other person living in the building. I decided to stay but after this lease ends-I am gone. I expect the market to be even worse for landlords and better for me.
What I did do: Wrote a letter asking for a rent reduction and supported it with apartments in Clinton Hill, Fort Greene and Prospect Heights. Also included newspaper articles noting how difficult the market has become for landlords.
What I had wished I had done: 1)Submitted my letter at least 2 months before the lease was to expire. That way it have given me much more time to find other apartments and sign a lease so that I could say to my LL "You didnt work with me so I am leaving". 2) Had a clear idea in my head of what is the upper limit of rent I would pay in the current apartment 3) Had a clear idea of what I wanted in the new apartment.
Also you need to consider what makes it difficult for your LL to find a tenant if you left. Also you need to be aware of the fact that as you look for other places to live the pickings are slimmer. If you go in with your eyes open it should come out fine.
Good luck!
Posted by: Acajou at October 14, 2009 1:34 PM
Here's my 2 cents. I tried to negotiate a rent reduction on an apartment that had been below market in the boom but was actually at the market value in August of 2009. You can see my post if you look at the archives. I got a tiny reduction (not even the amount I asked for) which was basically a good faith effort on the part of my LL since I am the only other person living in the building. I decided to stay but after this lease ends-I am gone. I expect the market to be even worse for landlords and better for me.
What I did do: Wrote a letter asking for a rent reduction and supported it with apartments in Clinton Hill, Fort Greene and Prospect Heights. Also included newspaper articles noting how difficult the market has become for landlords.
What I had wished I had done: 1)Submitted my letter at least 2 months before the lease was to expire. That way it have given me much more time to find other apartments and sign a lease so that I could say to my LL "You didnt work with me so I am leaving". 2) Had a clear idea in my head of what is the upper limit of rent I would pay in the current apartment 3) Had a clear idea of what I wanted in the new apartment.
Also you need to consider what makes it difficult for your LL to find a tenant if you left. Also you need to be aware of the fact that as you look for other places to live the pickings are slimmer. If you go in with your eyes open it should come out fine.
Good luck!
Posted by: Acajou at October 14, 2009 1:44 PM
If your lease is up Dec 31, you have to get the renewal lease from your lanlord by Nov 1st (60 day rule in NYC, as far as I remember)... when you get the new lease, call him and say that you're willing to re-sign the lease for $X, if not you'll be moving. If he objects, remind him that he'll have to find a tenant for a 6th floor walkup during holiday season.
I've negotiated my rent EVERY SINGLE YEAR so far... and I have about a 50% hit rate for getting a discount. It's just like any other business negotiation, however: you have to be ready to accept a "no", or to walk away.
Posted by: illig at October 14, 2009 1:54 PM
Many thanks to everyone for your great suggestions and appraisals. I'll let you know how it works out!
S
Posted by: snowbunny at October 14, 2009 1:57 PM
Well I didn't read your post too closely - sorry - you actually probably should be looking for a new place to live. I guess I am a little defensive about this rent reduction craze. I am a great landlord and take really good care of my tenants.
Posted by: donatella at October 15, 2009 2:59 PM
I'm with you donatella!
Posted by: henrycurtis at October 15, 2009 5:15 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.