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October 22, 2009
Combining Apartments
We own 2 cooperative apartments - a 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom side by side w/ a total square footage of 1,750. As we mull over the various alternatives of whether to sell both and purchase a stand-alone house (my biggest wish) - I wonder what renovation costs could be to break through and combine. Additionally curious to know if combining the units would increase the overall resale value.
I have looked over the various architects (Richard Perry!) and designers previously suggested on the Forum for this kind of work and know that we simply don't want to break through but to overhaul the layout to reflect a single 3 bedroom, 2 bath apartment.
Apartments are not a wreck, we did nice renovations on each w/new kitchens and floors.
I'm thinking 100K - curious to know the experiences of others.
And any suggestions for architects, please don't hesitate. Thank you.
Comments
I've never combined two apts as you describe, but I've done a fair amount of renovation. $100k to combine the two in a thoughtful way seems low, but it's hard to say without knowing more details. I would interview a number of architects and designers (an architect may not be necessary) and get their opinions and rough estimates.
One thing for sure--a 3 bedroom, 2 bath apt is highly desirable, and if you're in a nice building that's icing on the cake. Good luck.
Posted by: tinarina at October 21, 2009 9:49 PM
Since your true desire is to live in a house, I'd sell the apartments and spend no further money, except perhaps on a coat of paint.
I'm a real estate investor and I've flipped properties, but in this crappy market, there's no guarantee you'll be able to sell the combined unit for more than the parts.
Lately, I've noticed "combined apartments" like the one you describe sitting on the market and not selling or being taken off the market completely.
Folks with the means to buy large apartments in this economy with current lending hassles are able to be very picky. If you decide to combine the units, you better end up with a flawless product. Otherwise, you could lose your shirt.
Not to mention that real estate prices are sinking daily, so the sooner you get those units on the market, the better for your pocketbook.
Posted by: IronBalls at October 21, 2009 9:53 PM
Regarding the costs of combining, the biggest driver is the kitchen and baths. If they can be used largely as-is, without relocation, you can likely do this cost effectively. And the small kitchen could be made into a laundry room or kitchenette depending on the location.
I'm not quite as gloom and doom as Ironballs; you should do what's right for you. And don't forget that owning a house is a giant responsibility--and I say this as a townhouse owner who often misses the conveniences of living in a coop!
Posted by: tinarina at October 21, 2009 10:05 PM
keep in mind if the monthly maintenance on the combined units be too high. Even before the current recession, I've many combined units couldn't get more than the selling the separate units because the combined maintenance was too high.
Posted by: more4less at October 21, 2009 11:01 PM
I agree that the combined maintenance can make this a bad idea, but I've done lots of these side-by-side apartment combinations, and they can turn out really well. Talk to a realtor about the value of the finished apartment. In some buildings, bigger can be better.
James@schaeferarchitect.com
Posted by: jcs at October 22, 2009 7:58 AM
We did 11 years ago and spent about $60K then (although we did not have to do a lot of redesigning)and have about 1500 sq. ft. The real drawback is that people balk at the maintenance (which is high -- hw can it not be?). In this market, I would only do it if I intended to stay a long time. These large units with high monthly costs are not an easy sell except in boom times, when you can get a premium. Now the price is actually discounted from where it woudl be if it were two units. Still, I could not give up the space!
Posted by: BH76 at October 22, 2009 8:50 AM
Having combined aparmtments in this manner many times, I can tell you that it, if done thoughtfully, the combined apartment will improve your life and be significangly more valuable than the sum of its parts. If you like where you live stay put and make it work for you. Ed Kopel Architects.
Posted by: edkopel at October 22, 2009 9:02 AM
Having combined aparmtments in this manner many times, I can tell you that it, if done thoughtfully, the combined apartment will improve your life and be significangly more valuable than the sum of its parts. If you like where you live stay put and make it work for you. Ed Kopel Architects.
Posted by: edkopel at October 22, 2009 9:02 AM
Re: resale value. The devil is in the details. I was looking to buy a 3 bdr/2 bath last year and I avoided those combined apartments because the maintenance is way over the "regular" 3 bdr, 2 bath and the layouts can be quirky. Yes, you have lots of square footage when you combine apartments, but often that square footage is in tons of hallways (unless you do a major overhaul, move walls, so on).
If you do proceed with a major overhaul and your bedroom ends up being below a high traffic area in an apartment above you, I hope you won't make your neighbors' life miserable and demand that they put carpet in their kitchen or stop cooking after 9 pm.
Posted by: kensingtonka at October 22, 2009 9:29 AM
We have some advantages - being on the top floor, all windows facing Prospect Park and combined maintenance (at this point) just under $1400. Our nabe, PLG (as many have debated) is a spot that I just can't figure out, though I've been here almost 7 years. I don't think PLG could handle a top-drawer 3 bed/2 bath for over 850K - in a few years possibly when our Charter School is up (in 2010) and the new Lakeside Center is finished (2015).
Thus, trying to ballpark an imaginary figure and with everyone else, speculate on the return of a renovation investment. Back IRL, I'm going to start the process of interviewing realtors and architects.
Ironballs certainly has my attention though.
Posted by: iametis at October 22, 2009 9:53 AM
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Unless you are in a semi-crappy location, then who knows? But if you are in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope or possibly Prospect Heights, I would say open a door between the two units paint and furnish sparingly and go with that.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 22, 2009 10:18 AM
You're right, PLG is not ready for prime time. Big apartments there are fairly easy to find. Sell separately.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 22, 2009 10:37 AM
"Folks with the means to buy large apartments in this economy with current lending hassles are able to be very picky."
I find that counterintuitive. Seems large apartments are rare and would command a premium. But you're the expert.
***Bill Thompson for Mayor***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 22, 2009 10:51 AM
Great local architect that can help you if you decide to do the combination is:
Gowanus Design Initiative
Alan Barr
alan@gowanus-design.com
917.748.0119
Good luck!
Posted by: 262 at October 22, 2009 10:54 AM
not only double maintenance but double assessments, eek!
i guess another thing to consider is that you'll have to live elsewhere while the work is being done to combine the apartments, versus moving into a house that is all ready to go.
Posted by: CG_ups at October 22, 2009 3:26 PM
"Big apartments there are fairly easy to find." Not really -- of all the co-op sales I've seen in PLG in the last several years, the vast majority have been studios and 1 bedrooms. At 50 Lefferts Ave., for example, only 1 two bedroom unit has come on the marke tin the past five years (sold as a FSBO). There was also a two bedroom at 135 Hawthorne St over the summer. The only other sizeable apartments in PLG have been at 80 Winthrop St., a problematic building due to its low owner-occupancy percentage. I would think that a large apartment on Ocean Ave. would be very desirable, but potential problems include 1. Co-op approval needed to combine units and for all construction, 2. the % of owner-occupancy in some of the buildings on Ocean is still below 50%, making financing problematic, and 3. many people moving to PLG want houses, and houses are available (even in Lefferts Manor) for less than $850K -- 29 Maple St sold for $830K in July and 19 Maple is currently in contract for the same or slightly less.
Posted by: babs at October 22, 2009 3:38 PM
And BTW real estate prices are no longer sinking daily -- according to an appraiser I spoke with yesterday, his firm (one of the largest in NYC) is preparing to reclassify many Brooklyn neighborhoods (Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope) as "stable" instead of "declining," based on absorption rates. He said they really don't have enough statistics in other areas to make any determination yet, but he imagines conditions would be similar.
Posted by: babs at October 22, 2009 3:57 PM
Thinking about doing something similar in Brooklyn Heights. Will require ripping out a concrete wall, almost a full gut on the kitchen, renovating two bathrooms and some general clean-up in the second apartment. Looking for contractor recommendations for cost estimates.
Posted by: Kenny Powers at October 22, 2009 8:47 PM
Listen to everybody saying the double-maintenance fee monthly on a combined apartment would be difficult for resale. Even in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope - we know somebody who did it on the UWS in Manhattan and now they're stuck and can't sell. We own and live in PLG/LM and I agree with Babs if people come here for more space they get a house for $850K. Several non-LM blocks in PLG are fine and getting better and there are houses to be had there for under $850K. I also agree PLG is a 5-10 year wait to see more dramatic changes if one buys now, since that topic came up. That's what we're figuring. Then again even in 3 years we've seen a lot change so who knows. Especially the renter population. My husband recently told me a hilarious story, how he was riding home on the Q and he looked around at all the "beautiful people", the stylish, attractive 20-somethings. He sighed pathetically and thought to himself, gosh I miss Park Slope. But when the train stopped at 7th Ave none of the beautiful people got off. They got off at our stop, Prospect Park.
Posted by: traditionalmod at October 23, 2009 12:23 PM
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