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October 28, 2009
Bathroom Reno - Any Opinions?
Getting one relatively small full bathroom renovated. It's in bad shape and needs a total redo. Does this estimate seem reasonable for an average (meaning not low or high end) reno like this?
Labor:
Prep:
Cover floors, walls, stairs down to exit door, enclose bath hall door, cover furniture in bedroom daily
Demo:
drain, remove, secure toilet, shut off water, remove vanity – cabinets, remove tile(s) in the tub surround, remove shower body, remove floor tiles – 1-2 layers?, remove wallboard from tub – back wall (durock) side wall, remove closet shelving in bath, remove wall studs to open space into small closet/hall, remove cleats/shelves from closet, remove crown molding from hallway, re-route electric, remove tub, remove portion of ceiling (skylight), salvage floor boards in hallway floor outside bathroom, evaluate wall framing and sub-floor, disposal will be set up on an as needed basis
Plumbing:
remove drop down drain, replace drain line, lower lead bend, re-route hot and cold water supply for toilet and vanity, solder in new hot and cold water lines for shower body, install shower body, rough in drains for tub and sink
Finish Work:
re-frame tub surround to accommodate 60 inch tub, install skylight (trim out ceiling), install tub and drain, replace wall board throughout, install sub-strate to floor, install tile around tub, install tile on floor, install saddle, tape and compound walls – (3x), grout tub surround, grout floor, rebuild closets, enclose pipe (heat riser), sand, prime and paint, install sinks, install toilet, install shower rod, install finished plumbing trim, caulk around tub and sinks, install baseboard, install light fixture and GFCI outlet
Total Labor Costs
Total Cost - $17,250.00 (Length of job 4 – 6 weeks)
Estimated Materials:
$4,700 – this includes the three most expensive items which are: 60” vanity (approximately $1,600), disposal of debris (approximately $1,200), skylight (approximately $400)
GRAND TOTAL = $21,950
Comments
The skylight adds another $4-5,000 to the bill of a bathroom reno. NEVER, EVER skimp on skylight quality. I assume this one is non-operating (fixed).
Also, as someone else said in the OT, seriously consider radiant floor heating...preferably pex if you have hot water heat, otherwise electric (preferably 220v , not 110v).
It sounds like you have more plumbing than just swapping out a toilet & sink...that adds up.
Other thing to consider is a heat lamp with fan in the ceiling.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 28, 2009 10:28 AM
Thanks DIBS, there is definitely a lot to do, so maybe this sounds reasonable. Would you agree? How about the timing, 4-6 weeks? Also reasonable?
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 10:35 AM
4 to 6 is phenomenal.
Posted by: Arkady at October 28, 2009 10:37 AM
A bidet is really nice to have if you have room. My BF may use it more than I do.
Posted by: Arkady at October 28, 2009 10:43 AM
4-6 is doable. As Expert said in the OT, I'd get this broken down by each trade...demo, plumbing, electric, separate skylight, construction & drywall, tiling, finish installastion (plumber).
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 28, 2009 10:43 AM
Going to copy and paste my comments from the OT, so others can benefit.
An average size bathroom with average finishes will run between $8,000-15,000 (5K is on the low end), depending on the fixtures and tiles selected.
After removing the old wall tiles, make sure the contractor takes down ALL the walls and installs Cement Board NOT Green Board (not waterproof). If you live in an older home and want to go the extra distance, you should inspect the plumbing branches to make sure they're not rusted or need replacing. Cause now would be a good time to do that; while your walls are open.
Also, if this is a heavily used bathroom, while your floor is open, you might consider radiant heating.
- Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 10:23 AM
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 10:46 AM
Well, you didn't say you have a skylight. Is it a new opening or does it exist and and you're replacing. New openings ain't cheap!
"evaluate wall framing and sub-floor"
What does this mean? I'd ask for an 'add alternate' to replace all wall framing and sub-floor if needed, so you're not surprised after they open up the walls.
Actually, I think it should be replaced. If you're saying the bathroom is old, then so are they. It shouldn't be up for negotiation.
"enclose pipe (heat riser)"
What does this mean? If you're using this heat pipe to heat the room, make sure they install a grille cover. And what kind.
If the quote is not broken down by trade, I'd ask them to break it down. It's kinda hard to see what you're paying for each trade, ie. plumbing, electric, drywall, etc.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 10:47 AM
Arkady, you mean 4-6 weeks is short? I was thinking it was on the lengthy side, so glad to know this is also reasonable.
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 10:50 AM
I'd be pleasantly surprised if it came in at 6 weeks.
Posted by: Arkady at October 28, 2009 10:53 AM
Your labor costs seem very high and I wouldn't expect the job to take 4-6 weeks.
If the job takes 4 weeks with 2 guys on site at any given time, that breaks down to almost $54/hr. per person. If it takes 6 weeks, $36/hr.
For about $20/hr. you can still get very professional results.
Posted by: nise17 at October 28, 2009 10:53 AM
RE: the new skylight opening.
In the quote there's no mention of framing it and roof repair; flashing, etc.
The only mention is "install skylight (trim out ceiling)". If you don't have an architect doing a framing drawing, you should be very inquisitive about the method of construction.
Sorry to keep adding. I just want to make sure you get everything in writing.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 10:58 AM
4-6 seems like a very long time.
What are they building a bathroom for Madame de Pompadour?
It's a bathroom with a new skylight....3 weeks max.
Oh, and while they have the roof open for the skylight and while they're installing it (it'll be a few days work), ask for protection after they leave for the day (case it rains).
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 11:05 AM
Wow, this is some excellent advice. Really appreciate it.
Just not sure about the timing: Arkady and DIBS think it's good while ExTex thinks it's long. I'm not as concerned about the time as I am about making sure they do a good job.
ExTex, I've heard similar quotes for skylights. They were way less than I expected, even when a new opening was required. But I definitely want to make sure they get that right.
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 11:09 AM
I don't think the timing is unreasonable. The reality is that once there isn't a full day's work at your place, like when the job is 90% done, you're waiting on a few hours work here and there from different trades, in a certain order, to bring things to a close. This means there may be days when very little work is being done on your job.
As any renovator knows, it's the last 10% that's always the slowest!
Posted by: tinarina at October 28, 2009 11:20 AM
So the question that is nagging everyone and nobody has the balls to ask..."Will this be an ensuite bathroom????"
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 28, 2009 11:24 AM
"Will this be an ensuite bathroom????"
If it is, it should be a 50-75K job.
Don't forget to add marble columns around the tub.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 11:28 AM
"Will this be an ensuite bathroom????"
If so, does that mean the tub should be heart-shaped?
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 11:38 AM
Gut a 5' X 7' bathroom and the large closet behind it...close up three doorways, leave existing to master bedroom...framing, drywall, plaster, all new pluming (2 sinks, shower stall, jacuzzi & toilet plus marble tiling for a 9' X 14' bathroom...$40,0000
Fixtures & tile supplied by owner (Kohler, jacuzzi, restoration hardware)....$7,500
Shower surround....$2,200
Having it all ensuite for me and whoever is over that night....priceless
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 28, 2009 11:40 AM
nise17 and tinarina, thanks to you both as well for the info.
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 11:41 AM
"They were way less than I expected, even when a new opening was required."
From your quote "skylight (approximately $400)"
This price should be a red flag. Does this price include creating the opening and installation (if so, imho it's too low) or just the purchase of the skylight? Maybe that number is so low cause they expect you to get someone else to do the opening and roof work.
I'd scratch my head on this one, if I were you.
If you need someone that does openings (whether roof or exterior wall) and waterproofing, I can highly recommend someone.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 12:24 PM
Lots of good advice already given. I don't think that 4-6 weeks is unreasonable but also agree that, depending on contractor and subs, can certainly be done in 3 weeks or less. Price seems reasonable, maybe even on the low side. One thing to remember is that because of size, only a limited number of people/trades can work at any time. Also that certain things (tiling/grouting) take a fixed amount of time that can't be rushed.
I'd be a little concerned about the minor and not-so-minor fixtures (only one light, one outlet, no exhaust fan, any towel bar, etc.) I'm surprised that a 60" tub was not listed among the more expensive items (depending on depth and width). Make sure you've discussed the actual tile, cast iron plumbing, type of skylight, etc. in advance and preferably in writing. In an effort to limit, or at least give you leverage on change orders, would definitely request your contractor to quote in advance allowances for certain unknown conditions. Have your contractor deliver true copies of (a) Workers Compensation Insurance, and (b) personal liability insurance in a minimum amount of $1,000,000 per occurrence, naming you as an additionally insured. If obtaining permits, is that price included? Make sure you sign a contract describing the payment timeframe and structure.
Posted by: vinca at October 28, 2009 12:25 PM
"Have your contractor deliver true copies of (a) Workers Compensation Insurance, and (b) personal liability insurance in a minimum amount of $1,000,000 per occurrence, naming you as an additionally insured."
YES!!!! Name homeowner as additionally insured is a must.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 12:34 PM
Yes, ExTex - named insured!!
Posted by: Arkady at October 28, 2009 12:45 PM
Thanks Vinca and many thanks again to ExTex and all the other givers of great advice. Very very helpful.
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 28, 2009 3:45 PM
I wanted to add earlier, but was busy.
Is this the only quote you got? I'd get at least two more if I were you and see the similarities and differences. This isn't chump change for a bathroom. If you have other quotes in front of you, you can see what one contractor included or excluded that others didn't; to see what the monetary differences are between the contractors. Then make a list of questions to ask each regarding discrepancies or things that seem high/low or don't make sense or left out. ie. one contractor is charging 2K for demo while another may be charging 4K. What's one including that another isn't. And so on.
Also, if you want to save a few bucks, you can buy some stuff yourself. Toilet, sink, tub, tiles. The contractor marks that up. If you're going to do that. For the tile, ask the contractor to give you a square footage take off (and double check it yourself) of how much you'll need with extra (you'll want some extra tiles just in case repairs need to happen down the road).
Also, make sure you've seen finished work from whomever you're hiring, not just photos.
Also, there's room for negotiation. The industry is suffering.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 4:21 PM
Also, if this bathroom (bathtub) is going to be used by children, I would recommend a Thermostatic Valve to regulate the water temperature and prevent scalding.
Posted by: Expert Textpert at October 28, 2009 4:24 PM
Hey biff, lot of good advice, I would definitely buy all the finish stuff yourself. Tile, grout, tub, lights, cabinets, sink, toilet, etc. That ensures that you buy exactly what you want. I'm sure Mrs. Biff will enjoy that.
Posted by: denton at October 28, 2009 5:52 PM
Definitely echoing ExTex on the three bids and her other comments. Also, do you need approval from co-op board, or otherwise? If so, I'd seek their input in advance to make sure your bids/contractors meet their requirements. Are you working from drawings, or expecting the contractor to basically follow verbal instructions? That can lead to lots of problems unless you work that out in advance. If you had a design drawn by someone (architect, designer, otherwise), get a bid from the contractors that professional normally employs. If their bid is competitive, it's a plus to have contractors beholden to both you AND designer.
Buying all your own materials, rather than specifying and having the contractor purchase/deliver, is a mixed blessing. You want to be sure the material's available for delivery on your contractor's schedule, that the sizes/models delivered are exactly what you ordered, that they do not present any special installation challenges for your contractor, that all items will fit in conformance with NYC code, etc. Yes, the contractor gets a markup, but he also gets the material at a discount. Discuss this in advance.
There's something about the bid you posted that doesn't sit quite right with me. I think the example of electrical/points is indicative. Your bid mentions only "install light fixture and GFCI outlet." You'll need, at minimum, overhead light, exhaust fan, vanity light(s), vanity outlet(s) and switches, overhead light switch. Somehow the quote you posted strikes me as heavy on demo detail, and light on finish work detail. It's possible to get a very bare bones quote from a very good contractor, but something in this quote feels skewed. Lastly, I hope you fully comprehend just how little "covering" your bedroom furniture will protect your entire home from construction dust and debris.
Posted by: vinca at October 28, 2009 8:03 PM
skip the contractor..DIY. get the whole family involved.
Will be bonding experience. Great education for the kids and much cheaper than tuition at Packer, st. anns or wherever. You'll thank yourself when completed.
Posted by: Petebklyn at October 28, 2009 8:17 PM
Based on my recent experience renovating a larger bathroom (including a 65" tub and a separate stall shower), the estimate seems on the reasonable-to-low side.
I want to echo vinca's comment about covering your bedroom furniture. The quote mentions covering the furniture "daily." If it is (or will be) an ensuite master bath, are you expecting to uncover it each night and sleep in your bedroom during the renovation? You might want to rethink that. There's no way we could have lived in our bedroom during our master bath renovation. We took the mattress off our bed, cleared the items off most surfaces, and sealed everything else up under plastic. The contractor used the room as a staging area and it was completely unlivable. In fact, we moved out for the whole time (although the fact that we have a small child and a dog played into that decision). Your particular situation may be different and the setup may work for you, but like vinca said, you shouldn't discount the significant amount of dust and debris that this job will produce.
Posted by: Joanna at October 28, 2009 10:15 PM
Thanks vinca and Joanna for more great advice. It's appreciated.
Pete, nice thought but ain't gonna happen. Last time I put up a towel bar, the wall almost came down. Handy is not in my vocabulary.
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 29, 2009 7:33 AM
Biff, I recommended a guy who has worked for me for over ten years to two Brownstoner readers recently and he did two baths for them in the past couple of months, so he has them as references as well as me. His work is incredible and his price would come in quite a bit less than the estimate you have.
I do think that both of those bathrooms took four weeks and change (couple of extra days), so the time frame seems about right. He only does one job at a time.
Give me a way to contact you.
Posted by: dylanfan at October 29, 2009 3:48 PM
dylanfan, email me at biff dot champion at yahoo dot com
Posted by: Biff Champion at October 30, 2009 10:54 AM
dylanfan can you also email me your contractor's contact info for a bathroom reno I plan to do in the spring. thanks
nat215@mac.com
Posted by: renomom at October 31, 2009 12:36 AM
Biff, two emails to you at that yahoo address bounced back to me. Email me at westgate63@yahoo.com.
renomom, my guys do one job at a time and spring is too far ahead. So email me at that address when you are ready to start work.
Posted by: dylanfan at October 31, 2009 2:35 PM
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