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September 8, 2009
Running Child Upstairs
Hello. I have been living in my condo for 5 weeks. Immediately upon moving in, I realized that the child in the apartment above mine runs the length of the apartment--whose layout is the same as mine-- anywhere from a few minutes to as many as 45 minutes at a time. About two weeks ago after having to listen to that for 45 minutes, I went upstairs, introduced myself and politely stated that running for 45 minutes non-stop was jarring and that I couldn’t even hear my TV. The father asked me what he wanted me to do. I told him that the solution was up to him and his wife. I remained polite but clear about the noise being unnerving. He insists on my giving him a solution. I noted that in cases like this carpeting seemed like the solution. He said, “I won’t install carpeting. Anyway, I don’t think it will matter.” I told him not be so negative after pushing for a solution. He wanted us to agree on a schedule. I said, “It’s obvious I’m not home all week from 8 am to 8 pm. However when I come home, I’d like to be able to relax and hear my TV or just read.” He said, “That seems reasonable.” For the most part, there hasn’t been running after 8 pm during the week. The thing is, the weekends are unbearable with that child. I came home on Sunday night around 5 pm and by 6 pm I had to put in earplugs. Ditto for tonight. What would be my next step? He has said NO to carpeting. Am I being unreasonable? Should I stay quite about that noise? Should I just go to the condo association? Try with him again? I’d like to get along with my neighbors but it has to be a two-way street. The only thing, I am obviously the one in the weaker position. Thank you!
Comments
"For the most part, there hasn’t been running after 8 pm during the week. The thing is, the weekends are unbearable with that child. I came home on Sunday night around 5 pm and by 6 pm I had to put in earplugs. Ditto for tonight. What would be my next step? He has said NO to carpeting. Am I being unreasonable?"
Dunno, seems like he tried to make some reasonable accommodation. He got the kid to be quiet during the week. Sounds like you have to make some accommodation as well.
Can't you play some music or something?
Crap new condos...
Posted by: denton at September 7, 2009 5:05 PM
Little kids like to run. It is not natural for kids not to run, skip, jump etc. Its the sign of a happy child. If you really cannot stand it I think you will have to move - maybe to the top floor next time ? I also do not think that carpeting will make a huge difference, based on my own experience....
Posted by: crownheights2007 at September 7, 2009 5:21 PM
#1) Carpeting (especially with padding) would make an enormous difference.
#2) A friend of mine has a couple kids and her downstairs neighbors complained about noise from her kids running around too. She bought those rubber interlocking play mat tiles and covered her entire living room and hallways. I don't think she spent more than $100, and she bought a lot of those tiles. It's been a couple months, and I don't think her downstairs neighbor has complained again.
Posted by: IronBalls at September 7, 2009 6:52 PM
I would speak to the condo board fast because winter is coming and it will get worse. Don't most condo buildings require a certain % of floor covering for this very reason? If so, I would explain to the board that you tried speaking with dad unsuccessfully as a first attempt; that he completely refused to lay carpet down and asked YOU for another suggestion. Let's get real here, carpeting the floor is the only reasonable way to dampen the noise. Curious to know why you feel like you are in the weaker position - bc you are presumably a non-parent?
Posted by: bowl of dicks at September 7, 2009 9:06 PM
"Dunno, seems like he tried to make some reasonable accommodation. He got the kid to be quiet during the week"
yeah, it's called 8pm BEDTIME
Posted by: bowl of dicks at September 7, 2009 9:09 PM
As a parent who raised 2 kids (now teenagers) on the top two floors of a Brownstone, I believe that it is possible to teach your kids to behave in a manner that won;t make life hellish for a downstairs neighbor. It helps if the downstairs neighbor is understanding while the teaching process is ongoing.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at September 7, 2009 9:21 PM
If you can't get the upstairs neighbor to make his floor quieter, consider doing some work on your ceiling. Cork ceiling tiles would probably help, a dropped ceiling with a layer of insulation between your apartment and theirs would be even better
Posted by: ivan at September 7, 2009 9:52 PM
It's funny how parents can be completely oblivious to their kids either being obnoxious or just being kids, restaurants, cinemas, apts, etc etc. First off, I don't blame the child and you shouldn't expect to hear nothing with a child living upstairs. However, you are entitled to "quiet enjoyment" of your apt. What the father can do is cover 80% of his floors with carpeting as required in NYC apts, if he has a problem with that - bring it up with the condo board.
Posted by: Crownlfc at September 7, 2009 11:22 PM
Hi. Thanks to all for the quick responses.
I don't expect to hear nothing at all. The issue is the running and jumping can be non-stop. The parents have a hard time setting boundaries with the child. I've seen them twice unable to control their child's tantrum on the street. They just let him run free.
Yes, I feel weaker as the non-parent although I hope to become a parent in the next few years.
For post number one, it's not a new building!
Thank you all again.
Posted by: vesnaspring at September 8, 2009 12:56 AM
Any parents of a young child in the city already have enough conflict and face enough judgment, and honestly, you are adding to that pressure by framing this problem in your mind as being about their parenting skills. People are very sensitive to being judged, and will become resistant to anything you say if you are judging. This distorts the situation.
I would start being friendly with them for awhile. This alone might change their behavior. If not, when you feel like you know them and they aren't your enemy anymore, bring up the topic again in a different way--perhaps apologizing first for being confrontational last time, then stating that you understand that the boy needs to run and that you want him to be able to, and then suggesting those foam tiles (which can be picked up and put down easily) or carpet.
I would frame this by stating that you are bringing it up because you want the boy to run around whenever he wants to, because you like the boy and understand that small children need to run.
Posted by: vanburenproud at September 8, 2009 7:39 AM
Just some food for thought.
His behavior sounds like my friend's 5 year old. Its because he is autistic. On the outside he looks like a normal 5 year old. But he is aggressive, he is non stop energy, and tantrums take a long time to control. Its something they grow out of but it could take few more years.
My friend is short and as her son becomes older an older he is getting mor difficult to handle. He is a sweet boy but his autism leaves him unable to control himself.
I understand that it is somewhat controllable but it does take a alont time to settle down.
So maybe that's the issue?
Posted by: italiana71 at September 8, 2009 8:13 AM
I also meant to add that I believe there are laws dictating that apts must be 80% carpeted. I know our coop had the same issue and the apt with the children put carpeting down. It helped somewhat.
The guys upstairs should meet you half way.
Posted by: italiana71 at September 8, 2009 9:45 AM
vanburen - How do you characterize her first interaction as "confrontational"? I don't see it that way at all.
Posted by: Arkady at September 8, 2009 9:49 AM
I don't think the reason why the child is running or not running has ANY bearing on this whatsoever. Regardless of bad parenting, possible autism (?), or just being a normal 5 year old.
You have a right to peace. I'd approach the parents again thanking them for the weekday noise reduction and ask if they could address the weekend behavior.
If not let them know they're leaving you no choice but to go to the board and ask they they figure out an amicable solution prior to your resorting to that. If they ask you for a solution state it's not your responsibility.
If something isn't done within a reasonable time frame then follow up the conversation with a letter CC'ing the condo board with a pursuant to our conversations on both such and such dates and recap the conversations including their insistence that you come up with the solution.
Sounds to me like the parents are as insolent as the child. Poor kid.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 8, 2009 9:50 AM
im sorry but kids shouldnt be running INDOORS for 45 minutes. the parents should bring them to the park or something to get their energy out.
if it was me, id ask them to please buy their kid a treadmill. at least that way the sound will be localized to one part of the apartment.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 9:52 AM
im sorry but kids shouldnt be running INDOORS for 45 minutes. the parents should bring them to the park or something to get their energy out.
if it was me, id ask them to please buy their kid a treadmill. at least that way the sound will be localized to one part of the apartment.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 9:52 AM
im sorry but kids shouldnt be running INDOORS for 45 minutes. the parents should bring them to the park or something to get their energy out.
if it was me, id ask them to please buy their kid a treadmill. at least that way the sound will be localized to one part of the apartment.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 9:52 AM
vanburenproud - why should OP have to apologize for being "confrontational"? are you kidding me? OP has an absolute right to ask his upstairs neighbors to be more mindful of their child's running. And it is not confrontational in any negative way, it is called healthy communication.
Posted by: bodhi_brooklyn at September 8, 2009 9:58 AM
How about a trampoline with a pad underneath? My friends bought this for her kids and keeps it in his room, with a pad and carpet underneath. It's been a sanity saver for everyone all round:
http://www.amazon.com/Galt-America-59375-Original-Trampoline/dp/B001K7J5N0/ref=pd_sim_sg_22
Posted by: HmmWhichNeighborhood at September 8, 2009 9:58 AM
Dear Santa,
I have been extra good this year.
I would like a heavy metal drum kit.
Pair of new tap shoes.
Pogo stick.
Thanks in advance.
Posted by: IMBY at September 8, 2009 9:59 AM
LOL imby. and lol @ the trampoline suggestion. i dont think id want to live under someone with a trampoline ahhaha
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 10:02 AM
{REWRITE}
Dear Santa,
I have been extra good this year.*
I would like a heavy metal drum kit.
Pair of new tap shoes.
Pogo stick.
Thanks in advance.
*Weekdays between the hours of 8:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 8, 2009 10:07 AM
No - It's been quiet with the pad and it keeps it localized in the kids room. And the kid get his energy out. Really!
Everyone was happy with it, but then again my friend was also OK with putting carpet down in addition. Unlike the OP's neighbor.
Posted by: HmmWhichNeighborhood at September 8, 2009 10:07 AM
Go to the managing agent and/or condo board immediatley and let them deal with him. This is why there are house rules. You do not want this to become personal. So, he doesn't like carpeting -- too bad. He has a child and he needs to get over his aesthetics and carpet the place. And take the kid out to run around -- so that home is for quieter activities.
Parent sounds like a selfish jerk. And yes, I raised a child in a coop with neighbors downstairs who never had a reason to complain.
Posted by: BH76 at September 8, 2009 10:08 AM
The guy should get carpeting until his kid is old enough to understand the need to be quiet at least some of the time.
Oh, and little kids running around making noise isn't weird, abnormal, unusual, strange, or a sign of parental incompetence. It's normal behavior for healthy kids.
And the park is nice, but until they are old enough to not hurt themselves on the playground equipment or run off into traffic, it is very exhausting to take them to the park for very long, so sometimes you just have to let them run around at home.
And if your kids can't run around at home, then you don't really have a home. You live in a glorified hotel or something.
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 10:35 AM
When the father was younger he was the type who felt he could blast his music and nobody should complain. Self-centered and obnoxious. Doesn't apologize and could care less how affects others. And will teach his kid to be same way.
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 8, 2009 10:40 AM
From the time my son was 4 until he could reason for himself, I'd remind him to be not loud, and no shoes in the parlor floor, especially at night or early morning, because we have tenants downstairs. It's absolutely possible to tone down a kid's wanting to run and jump excessively. It's called setting limits, and enforcing them.
Those parents give us all a bad name.
Posted by: cmu at September 8, 2009 11:01 AM
get some advice from this guy?
http://www.nj.com/parenting/maria_andreu/index.ssf/2009/09/man_slaps_child_at_walmart.html
(that's the Walmart slapper)
and im kidding btw with that, i dont condone that. but the kids parents should really teach the kid that their apartment is not the set of Romper room. if they want space for the kid to run around like a bunch of ritalin-fueled hyenas, move to the suburbs where you wont bother other people!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:03 AM
I'm surprised there are so many on here who think it's normal or acceptable for children to be running around indoors. When I was growing up, we were never allowed to run around indoors. That's what outdoors is for. For the poster who mentioned that playground equipment may be too dangerous for a small child, nothing is more dangerous than a home.
It is completely inappropriate for this family to allow their child to run roughshod indoors and disturb your peace. Of course, such noise once in a while should be tolerated, but if these parents are too lazy to take their kids to the park to get out their energy that should not become your burden. I would speak to them again and tell them that the constant noise on the weekend is a nuisance and you would like it to stop. Since they are not willing to put down carpeting, they are just going to have to train their child not to run around all day. If it doesn't stop, I would then complain to the board. I would definitely raise the issue with the owners again before going to the board. You might be able to resolve this amicably. You simply need to state your position more assertively.
Posted by: orestes at September 8, 2009 11:14 AM
even my DOG knows not to run around indoors! granted we live on the ground floor so it wouldnt be a problem, but if a big dumb goofy very excitable pitbull can be taught not to run around inside like an animal, im sure the obviously gifted and talented child can be taught the same.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:18 AM
It's not acceptable. Procreation doesn't give someone the right to make your space uninhabitable. I was up at 6 am for two years because of two hyperactive kids above me. Occasionally indoor soccer games. And the neighbor's baby would wake them up by throwing toys it's toys out of the crib onto their hardwood floor several time a night. Unfortunately their hardwood floor was my ceiling.
One, being polite certainly a good start. Two, ask them nicely to keep it down when it's occurring - especially early in the morning. Three, ask them to pop down while the kids are running so they can hear how bad it is. Four, any condo rules on carpeting? 80% requirement usually in the regs somewhere.
Good luck!
Posted by: Johnny at September 8, 2009 11:21 AM
As a human being, I realize that I went through an inconvenient period called "childhood" where sometimes I did insensitive things like "playing"...I occasionally went so far as to do these things while adults were attempting to engage in important activities such as watching TV.
I know that other people, especially children, can be terribly inconvenient...
Posted by: bagus at September 8, 2009 11:22 AM
Has anyone here ever tried to make a toddler/preschooler sit down when they have extra energy to burn off?!!??
We had a similar situation with upstairs neighbors....3 year old doing laps for what seemed like hours at a time. We couldn't understand how they could let it happen and practically cursed the parents. Our kids are now 5, 2 and 2. Now we understand it....we should've been giving our upstairs neighbors sympathy.
(There is a drop ceiling between us and the downstairs neighbors who swear that they don't hear anything bothersome. And for the record, our kids are in bed by 8.)
Posted by: CHMomma at September 8, 2009 11:27 AM
"I'm surprised there are so many on here who think it's normal or acceptable for children to be running around indoors. When I was growing up, we were never allowed to run around indoors. That's what outdoors is for. For the poster who mentioned that playground equipment may be too dangerous for a small child, nothing is more dangerous than a home."
The age of the child was never specified. As the father of a toddler, that is the age group I'm thinking of. It's amazing how much noise a little child makes when he walks. They have no concept of carefully shifting weight from one foot to another. Every step is like a little jump. Not sure how old they have to be to get a normal walking gate...
If the child is 4 or 5, then, yes, parents should reason with the child and the child could spend more time running around outside.
If the child is younger than that, you can't really reason with him. You can bribe him with children's DVDs and cookies or you can lock him up in a crib or playpen or you can constantly pick him up and physically stop him, but those are pretty much your only options.
And your "nothing is more dangerous than a home" statement is absurd. I don't know what your home is like, but mine is definitely less dangerous for a 1-3 year old child than a city playground.
Most of the playground equipment I've seen provide kids plenty of opportunity to climb up to 3-6 times their height and then fall to the ground.
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 11:29 AM
bagus: that kind of attitude where kids can do whatever they want cuz "they are kids" and we dont want to stifle their creativity and energy blah blah blah is terrible and totally makes other peoples lives miserable who choose not to bear fruit. there's a gazillion and one other activities the kids could be doing instead of stomping around annoying downstairs neighbors. how would you feel if someone above you practiced the drums non stop all day and night? dont stifle them!!!
and im SURE if this was just an occassional thing the original psoter wouldnt have posted about it. clearly it's on-going, and that just isnt right.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:30 AM
"even my DOG knows not to run around indoors!"
In many ways, dogs are more intelligent and trainable and less stubborn than young children.
Actually, dogs are more intelligent and trainable and less stubborn than many adults...
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 11:31 AM
I'm reminded of a scene from the first season of Mad Men.
There is a birthday party at the Draper home. One child is yelling and running through the halls until he is slapped by a man who is not his father.
Imagine if that happened today in Park Slope.
Posted by: DitmasSnark at September 8, 2009 11:32 AM
dont worry.. he'll be off to college in 10-12 years.
Posted by: big swinging nick at September 8, 2009 11:35 AM
Some of these replies are unbelievable. Children should be taught that the apt is not the place to be running around in incessantly and the reasons therefor, i.e., people live downstairs and it is disturbing to them. Fear not,you won't harm the child irreparably. As a matter of fact there may be an unintended consequence. You might be building character and teaching a novel concept; respect of others.
Posted by: Hank at September 8, 2009 11:37 AM
i was wondering this the other day.. are there child-free buildings in new york city? or is that illegal here? it seems like it would be a great ammenity for some. i know the complex of Melrose Place is a child-free apartment building, but that's fictional.
8rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:37 AM
LOL snark. did you see the link i posted above? of that creepy looking man who looksl ike gargamel from the smurfs, slapped some woman's child he didnt even know in a jersey Walmart in jersey!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:39 AM
"Some of these replies are unbelievable."
I know. The number of childless people who know everything about children is unbelievable.
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 11:42 AM
When I was a toddler - if my Mom received a complaint about me making my neighbor's apt uninhabitable due to my obnoxiousness I would have been told once nicely that i should not run, and why i should not run in the apt.
If i then chose not to listen, my backside would have been tenderized by her hand.
nowadays it seems like "no madison, if you keep running no more organic soy chocolate milk for you"
Posted by: dirty_hipster at September 8, 2009 11:46 AM
children aren't that complex, northsloperenter. one doesnt need to have bred to "get" them. plus we all were children once.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:47 AM
rob -- did you know wisdom and self righteousness are inversely correlated?
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 11:50 AM
Chiming in as a parent: yes, the younger set needs to run around (it happens indoors, even if it happens outdoors), their little footfalls are astonishingly loud (they land with their whole foot), and it is not reasonable to expect anything else with a child under 5 or some special needs kids. Also, because bedtime is at 8, young children are usually at home after 5, to allow for dinner, bath, bedtime prep, etc.
That being said, the parents have an obligation to limit the annoyance caused by their childr(ren)'s natural tendencies. Hours will not work (see above). Carpet may work, and while many condo / cooop associations have an 80% coverage rule, I don't think this is a law. Enforcement can be difficult, too. But if the family has an issue with carpets (they can be dusty), the playmats are an excellent idea.
The advice about how to approach the parent is good. While your previous approach didn't sound too "confrontational," taking a "help the child be able to run around without bothering anybody" tack might smooth his hackles and make it easier for him to hear your concerns.
Good luck.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at September 8, 2009 11:53 AM
northsloperenter- but rob makes a good point. Even us childless folk have to deal with other people's children and they affect us too, as per the OP post.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2009 11:55 AM
Yes, watching yuppie parents discipline their children is rather fascinating. Once I saw a 2 year old kind of starting a tantrum, and his 4 year old sister ran over and grabbed his arms to "make him behave" which only got him even more worked up. The dad came over and said, "I know you're trying to help, but let me do it."
Posted by: infinitejester at September 8, 2009 11:58 AM
Long ago I had an apartment with a kid upstairs who had hotwheels and used the little trike non-stop, except when he was using some kind of toy car that had to be charged up by rolling it a thousand times before releasing it to careen into the wall across the room. I was WAY childless and unmarried at that time, but I honestly really liked it. I was in a time of my life where NOTHING was much fun and it reminded me that some people could still have lots of it.
Am I insane for always having enjoyed waking up to kid sounds? I even liked the school in our back yard which woke us up for years at about 7:45 am with screams and ball sounds.
I guess I am just an asshole for suggesting vesnaspring to just try to learn to enjoy it.
Posted by: Stonergut at September 8, 2009 12:02 PM
i was wondering this the other day.. are there child-free buildings in new york city?
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 11:37 AM
Yes Rob. They are called Nursing homes.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at September 8, 2009 12:03 PM
quote:
Am I insane for always having enjoyed waking up to kid sounds?
clinically!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 12:06 PM
"Even us childless folk have to deal with other people's children and they affect us too,"
Of course they do. I would not like to live underneath a young child, to be honest.
But when the child made noise I wouldn't think it was due to negligent parents or the child having some type of developmental problem. I would realize it was because children make noise.
I frankly did not understand this before I had kid and was pretty ungenerous toward parents with young children.
I do think parents should put carpeting and/or padding down if their downstairs neighbors complain. It won't eliminate the noise, but it will certainly help.
I do not think parents should chain the kid to a wall and gag him or smack him around for playing.
And I am glad that I'm moving to a garden apartment and will not need to worry about my kid driving the downstairs neighbor nutso.
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 12:11 PM
Hate to be a downer, but what is the condo board going to do? Even if you 'Get Them Involved' - A. It sounds like a small building, so they are probably self managing and of limited experience, and B. They have absolutely no recourse.
Further to what Stonergut commented - Is it really that bad? I live above running kids and they are usually just noisy for a few hours during the day. Its also not that LOUD. Is it 20, 30 decibals? More? Less? is it as loud as a jet engine? I doubt it. Quiet enjoyment is one thing, but it does not imply "silent" enjoyment. Again, I repeat -The condo board cannot do anything for you unless they are exceeding some very high decible level at night (Usually past 10 PM). It is not a coop and they have virtually no power over an owner's behavior.
Also - You guys mentioning 80% floor covering...I have never seen that and it most certainly is not in my condo paperwork. Where does that come from? Maybe only applies to rentals or coop's or something.
Posted by: newsouthsloper at September 8, 2009 12:11 PM
brooklynchicken- I think the thing about rugs is actually a NYC regulation but I could be wrong on that.
Stonergut- there used to be a family who lived above me with a very active 10 year old. They kept apologizing and yelling at him everytimme he made noise and I told them to please not worry about it. But then, he always went to bed by 9 and they had rugs as well. Still, I did enjoy hearing him have a good time upstairs and he didn't keep it up for very long.
My upstairs neighbors were great and sensitive to the fact they lived in an apartment. Parents need to be more sensitive to the fact that apartment living is not like living in your own single family home. And it isn't fair for parents to get their backs up when someone complains about noise - they need to be more proactive.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2009 12:12 PM
northsloperenter- I agree with that- kids make noise and I would hate for all that exuberance and joy in life be smacked out of them. That is criminal on so many levels.But parents are there to raise them and socialize them so they can function in society. And we get too many people on both sides of the issue who are not willing to work with the other side.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2009 12:19 PM
tolerance for their kids' noises is something that someone might extend as a courtesy. It's not an inherent right. If the noise bothers neighbor, obligation is on parent to resolve the matter. Parent hood aint easy but it's a life decision one has to deal with all the corresponding issues when they pop up.
I sometimes have issues with telling my son to stop jumping around but I certainly aint going to say it's no my issue or is NOT an issue when neighbors coming complaining about the noise.
Posted by: more4less at September 8, 2009 12:23 PM
newsouthsloper: check your House Rules for any requirements. For many years condos had almost no rules but that is changing as rules do force people who live together to act with more repsect when needed.
Posted by: BH76 at September 8, 2009 12:28 PM
While I am sympathetic to the OP's plight and believe he/she should definitely have peace and quiet when needed, I think its unrealistic and unfair to say there is something wrong with the child or parent in question upstairs. Anyone who has kids knows that there are times that no matter what you do the kids will do what they want. That being said, I agree with the people who say that the best way to find a compromise is to be friendly and try to see the situation from both sides.
Posted by: wasder at September 8, 2009 12:39 PM
i think that you are definitely not being unreasonable. i think the majority of us want this type of situation: work a 10-hour day, come home and relax, sleep and then do it all over again. asking someone to keep it quiet after 8p mon-fri is pretty reasonable. i think the perspective of this parent is skewed becase of the kid.
i'm on the 2nd floor of a 3-family building. the couple above me walk very loudly upstairs from my unit. it's annoying, but i don't think it is as bad as a kid running 45min across the floor. in addition, i have a dog. he may bark once in a while, so maybe this evens out, with the pounding walking and the rare barking.
Posted by: brooklynbd at September 8, 2009 12:52 PM
As many posters above me mentioned, carpeting is actualy required in most apartments. Check your condo's bylaws. Most of us don't put in carpet or area rugs because we like the look of our wood floors. If noise isn't an issue with the neighbor below, then there's no problem. But in the case of your upstairs neighbor, I'm guessing you have a leg to stand on when asking him to at least put down area rugs with padding beneath them. This will significantly cut down on the noise or at least muffle it.
As a parent to be, I totally agree with the parent who posted here saying that it's perfectly reasonable to expect a neighbor to teach their children to behave in a way that does not infringe on another neighbor's peace and quiet.
Posted by: BrooklynSteve at September 8, 2009 1:02 PM
i think that you are definitely not being unreasonable. i think the majority of us want this type of situation: work a 10-hour day, come home and relax, sleep and then do it all over again. asking someone to keep it quiet after 8p mon-fri is pretty reasonable. i think the perspective of this parent is skewed becase of the kid.
i'm on the 2nd floor of a 3-family building. the couple above me walk very loudly upstairs from my unit. it's annoying, but i don't think it is as bad as a kid running 45min across the floor. in addition, i have a dog. he may bark once in a while, so maybe this evens out, with the pounding walking and the rare barking.
Posted by: brooklynbd at September 8, 2009 1:13 PM
i think that you are definitely not being unreasonable. i think the majority of us want this type of situation: work a 10-hour day, come home and relax, sleep and then do it all over again. asking someone to keep it quiet after 8p mon-fri is pretty reasonable. i think the perspective of this parent is skewed because of the kid.
i'm on the 2nd floor of a 3-family building. the couple above me walk very loudly upstairs from my unit. it's annoying, but i don't think it is as bad as a kid running 45min across the floor. in addition, i have a dog. he may bark once in a while, so maybe this evens out, with the pounding walking and the rare barking.
Posted by: brooklynbd at September 8, 2009 1:13 PM
Was in the grocery store the other day and heard this kid babbling, the mom told the kid to "shut up". He marched right up to her, looked up and very calmly announced, "but I'm not done talking yet." Doesn't really have anything to do with the thread but got a kick out of it.
Sometimes the parents are worse than the kids and if you continue to nag about the noise they won't care. If you are nice about it (which it seems like you are doing) and try to get to know them then the parents make an effort to be quiet for you and the child learns that a friend lives below and it's polite to tone it down.
Another thing you can do is have your neighbors come down to your apartment while you stomp away in theirs. They might have more sympathy if they know first-hand what you're dealing with every day.
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 1:20 PM
northsloperenter- I think everyone would agree that children make noise, but do you think it's acceptable to permit a child to run back and forth in an apartment for 45 minutes with a resident underneath? That's the issue here. It's not about the noise that is attendant to children (dropping things, running or falling occasionally). It is about parents permitting children to use the apartment as a playground. That is extremely rude to other residents and utterly selfish and unacceptable. Take your child to the park to play or move into a single family home.
Posted by: orestes at September 8, 2009 1:22 PM
Bitter Retort, sounds like you know of what you speak. Have you experience this issue with you stomping around in your Loubous, and your downstairs neighbor complaining??
Posted by: brighton beoch at September 8, 2009 1:29 PM
"Another thing you can do is have your neighbors come down to your apartment while you stomp away in theirs."
My downstairs neighbour in my old apartment suggested that after complaining about the noise The Champettes were making. So I agreed to do it and immediately switched the locks once I got inside their apartment. Although they ended up with The Champettes, their place was much nicer than mine. I feel I got the better end of the deal, despite the constant pitter patter of rugrats above me.
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 8, 2009 1:34 PM
"do you think it's acceptable to permit a child to run back and forth in an apartment for 45 minutes"
orestes -- yes, I think it is acceptable for a child to play for 45 minutes at a time in his home.
My son spent a good 30 minutes yesterday picking up a ball, rolling it across the floor, running to pick it up, rolling it back the other way, running to pick it up, rolling it back again, laughing his head off the whole time yelling "ba! ba! ba! ball!"
He's 15 months old and it's the first time he's ever done it, and there was no way I was going to stop him. I confess I got the ball out from under the desk for him and rolled it across the room myself a few times.
He could not do this out on the sidewalk as the ball would roll out into the street not to mention he'd be running on concrete and could injure himself.
He could not do this at a playground as other children would interfere and he would be distracted by everything around him.
The one place he could do this is in his home.
Posted by: northsloperenter at September 8, 2009 1:37 PM
As above, suggesting (nicely) some area rugs might be a good idea. As a parent, I know that with very young children, the time just before supper is the witching hour, and that's the time when it's most likely that they're going to go wild. After age 4 or so, it's much easier to teach them to control their behavior in this regard. And yes, from a young age, we've trained our child to be reasonably respectful of the neighbors who live beneath us.
Honestly, the noisiest neighbors I've ever had have been young couples--heavy shoes in the house, loud parties, and cats that run a bowling alley in the hallway overhead.
Posted by: since 2000 at September 8, 2009 1:38 PM
A lot of posters have mentioned "quiet use and enjoyment" but I think it actually refers not to any right to quiet but to the right to use your apartment in a reasonable way without harassment or interference from landlord, neighbors, etc. ?
I'm not a lawyer, but this probably means the kid has every right (legally speaking) to be playing indoors, though the parents should be doing more to reduce the noise. Sounds like you have pretty reasonable expectations. (Good luck!
Posted by: tasteslikechicken at September 8, 2009 1:38 PM
Brighton,
We have hardwood upstairs and our bedroom below has cork floors which greatly reduces any noise for the people below.
Our neighbors, with whom we share a common wall (their living room and our bedroom) are extremely noisy but since they've laid down 60% rugs which is our co-op's policy there is nothing we can do short of flinging sh*t in their windows. ; ) PS, being nice didn't work with her because she is Whisky Tango.
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 1:39 PM
this thread is funny. whenever someone posts something like, "my neighbor listens to music too loud," or "the old dudes on my block are outside drinking and making noise until 2am," the response is always "grow up whiner, you live in brooklyn, get used to city life and deal with it or move to the suburbs!!" but just throw the word "children" in there and the sanctimonious preachers all come out. (some of the responses are reasonable, but most just make clear the self-righteousness is much less about how we affect each other than it is about judging parents.)
Posted by: i disagree at September 8, 2009 1:44 PM
"We have hardwood upstairs and our bedroom below has cork floors which greatly reduces any noise for the people below"
I find hard wood in the bedroom often increases the noise in the bedroom itself.
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 8, 2009 1:52 PM
Biff, btw, I think Mrs Champion would ask the Champettes to take it easy but you would feed them more sugar...
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 1:54 PM
Biff, Maybe this is why your house is the quietest on the block. ; )
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 1:56 PM
bitter, why don't you put a cork (floor) in it?
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 8, 2009 1:59 PM
Simple answer:
1. Upstairs neighbor needs to put down carpeting. Quite possibly required by law or condo bylaws anyway.
2. Neighbor does not need to forbid child to run on weekends, and you need to accept that kids run, jump, make noise, etc.
Until you BOTH make these reasonable concessions, you're going to have a miserable time of it.
Posted by: basementalist at September 8, 2009 2:04 PM
Biff, you calling me Corky? Where's Dirty when u need him?
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 2:05 PM
@Biff Champion: what's so bad about a little noise in the bedroom...
I did say, a lot of comments above, that a good strategy includes apologizing for being confrontational.
I said it because the response from the dad (shutting down, demanding that the OP present the solution) sounded like he at least perceived a conflict. I obviously don't know whether there was a real conflict here. But even if the OP was totally friendly, if the dad perceived a conflict, then it makes sense to acknowledge it by apologizing.
I mean, what's more important--being right or fixing the problem?
Posted by: vanburenproud at September 8, 2009 2:08 PM
"Biff, you calling me Corky? Where's Dirty when u need him?"
If the dirty sandal fits...
"@Biff Champion: what's so bad about a little noise in the bedroom..."
Nothing, unless it involves Mrs. C. screaming to get out!
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 8, 2009 2:11 PM
i disagree - Thank you for your observation. So true!
orestes - "...move into a single family home." - If it were only as easy as having a single family house left to us or bought for us.
Only in Brooklyn is being/not being a parent a political statement by definition.
Posted by: CHMomma at September 8, 2009 2:11 PM
This reminds me of a property law case that I studied in law school. A while back there was a cattle feedlot in Arizona. Cow shit and flies literally everywhere, and a stink that went on for miles. It being Arizona, the golf course developments got closer and closer, until finally they were building new condos around fake little lakes and manicured golf courses right near the feedlot. Of course the new residents were shocked - SHOCKED - that they had to deal with the stench of cow manure and the flies. So they sued the owner of the feedlot for nuicance.
I'm not going to tell you how the case was decided, and ask the rest of the lawyers not to do so either. But I will point out that the OP moved into a condo (notorious for transmitting noise, especially the new construction) in Brooklyn (New York City's nursery). I for one think there is a pretty finite limit on how far the parents should be expected to go to ensure the tranquility of the OP's home. Carpets, fine, but that's about it. Frankly, if you can't hear your TV through the noise of kids running around above you you should have thought more carefully before moving into a condo in Brooklyn.
It's like you're walking down a dimly lit block in Fort Greene listening to your i-pod.... sorry, wrong thread.
Posted by: lechacal at September 8, 2009 2:20 PM
quote:
2. Neighbor does not need to forbid child to run on weekends, and you need to accept that kids run, jump, make noise, etc.
um NO. running around an apartment making that kind of noise isnt acceptable. why are parents in this city so entitled? jesus. fine if kids can run, so can adults. hey adults lets all bang on the walls with pots and pans as well because adults do that and we are entitled to have fun.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 2:25 PM
...and by "finite limit" I don't mean the upstairs neighbor shouldn't do anything. Obviously there are some things the OP is in his rights to complain about. Like a drum set or a pogo stick. What I am saying is that a toddler running up and down the floor comes with the territory and if you don't like it don't live in a condo in Brooklyn.
Posted by: lechacal at September 8, 2009 2:28 PM
"It's like you're walking down a dimly lit block in Fort Greene listening to your i-pod.... sorry, wrong thread."- lechacal
I guess this means you shouldn't walk down your uncarpeted hallway listening to your ipod so that you can actually hear the noise your children are making? :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2009 2:34 PM
moonboots might help too. i think they might be called marshmellow boots these days? i dont know. but you can hop around on hardwood floors with them and the sound wont be as bad.
i just did a search for you on ebay for moonboots but nothing good is really coming up, and the ones that do arent the things i have in mind.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 2:41 PM
What is a home without children? Quiet. ~Henny Youngman
Posted by: bitter retort at September 8, 2009 2:56 PM
This problem is SO small time compared with....
Posted by: East New York at September 8, 2009 3:06 PM
LOL ENY i read about that. he should be on that show Hoarders. last night's episode was a crazy cat hoarder lady. GUH-ROSS!!! they found 67 cats on the property. oh yeah, 38 of them were dead carcasses and bones :-/ (i feel some of the PLUSA's are getting to crazy cat lady hoarder status these days hahah) shhh dont tell them i said that.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 3:11 PM
I heard that rob! :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2009 3:13 PM
ROBERT!
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 8, 2009 3:16 PM
Carpets are not required by law.
However, there is a minimum IIC (basically the amount of noise that can go through the floor is regulated). I'd be willing to bet your ceiling/his floor isn't the minimum.
Is that the guy upstairs fault?
I dunno.
I'm not sure area rugs are going to do anything (unless they are wall to wall area rugs the kid will run on and off the rugs).
There are many many architectural solutions to your problem, all of which are much much more expensive than just getting your neighbor to control his kid during critical hours...
If not, go to the board - the guy is exceeding maximum allowable dBA transfer (and/or his floor is insufficiently constructed...)
Posted by: young archi at September 8, 2009 3:21 PM
Ahem, Rob. Which would you rather have upstairs from you, a cat lady or a kid?
Posted by: Arkady at September 8, 2009 3:39 PM
"um NO. running around an apartment making that kind of noise isnt acceptable. why are parents in this city so entitled? jesus. fine if kids can run, so can adults. "
Yeah, and if babies can crap themselves in public, why, so can I!
Posted by: basementalist at September 8, 2009 3:49 PM
no one's stopping you basementalicist. please PLEASE tell me you are not one of those newfangled dangling babies over sewers to pee and poop parents ive started seeing lately. cuz last time i checked most babies dont poop in public, they poop in diapers.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 8, 2009 4:02 PM
northsloperenter- there is a difference between a one-off event or very occasional occurrence and repeated noise. A good neighbor doesn't complain about the occasional parties of a neighbor. But if the neighbor has a party everyday, then it's a problem. The same would apply to the noise generated by children. Your child rolling a ball one day is no big deal, as would the occasional noise that all children make (throwing or dropping things, for example). But if you think your apartment is your child's substitute playground and you would permit him/her to make excessive noise on a daily basis, then you would be an obnoxious neighbor. There is no special treatment exemption for children's noise. If my peace and quiet are being disturbed in an unacceptable manner, it doesn't matter whether the noise is generated by children or adults. Again, I do believe in being understanding and avoiding battles with your neighbors, but I think it's outrageous for people to assume that others should tolerate the excessive noise of their children, especially if they are the prevalent ill-behaved ilk.
Posted by: orestes at September 8, 2009 4:07 PM
something is wrong here. i have a small child, and they may run once in awhile inside but probably not with shoes on anyway in the apt. INSIST they put down rugs or carpeting. check the law / get your board involved.
Perhaps do some insulating for your own benefit also because we have lived below a child for almost 3 years and have never heard her, and we're in a new condo.
Posted by: wine lover at September 8, 2009 5:00 PM
Why don't they raise their kids in a tented backyard compound like every good god-fearing parent does. Won't even know they are there.
Posted by: IMBY at September 8, 2009 5:06 PM
The board will do nothing, they cannot enforce anything that is not specifically spelled out in the bylaws.
Even then, you will have a hard time proving it is excessively loud. Especially since the OP mentions it is not occuring after 8PM. Most bylaws state that noise must be curbed after 10 PM.
The board of a condo is essentially powerless.
Posted by: newsouthsloper at September 8, 2009 5:14 PM
classic brownstoner thread - hitting so many hot buttons. annoying kids! indulgent (or maybe incompetent?) parents! selfish childless neighbors! crappy (new? old?) construction! now if someone could only work in sublets, slumlords and street crime we will have hit all the high notes.
it really makes little difference whether the kid should be running, or why the kid is running, 'cause the kid *is* running, and all the self-righteous indignation everyone can muster isn't going to change it. you can bet those parents aren't reading brownstoner for our advice on how to raise their kids to respect (or drive batty) their downstairs neighbors.
when i lived in a condo, there was an 80% floor covering rule that existed expressly for situations like this.my formerly quiet upstairs neighbors became extremely noisy first-time parents and had to carpet their unit as a result. a similar rule exists in the bylaws of many coops and condos in NYC, so check your bylaws. if the rule is there, these people need to get rugs, carpets, foam mats, whatever. be nice and maybe they will handle it on their own initiative. if not, you have to get the board involved. if the rule isn't there, you can take the issue to the board and try and have the rule added. just don't suffer in silence cause that kid is getting heavier every day. :-)
Posted by: geekspice at September 8, 2009 5:17 PM
insulating won't help (very much)...you need to isolate the sound with a continuous resilient barrier (carpet, cork or rubber (the best outside carpet) sub floor on the floor side).
the architectural solutions are all contingent on preventing a sound path from developing vibrated sound through the structure/finishes -
a better solution is working it out with the neighbor...
Posted by: young archi at September 8, 2009 5:22 PM
"no one's stopping you basementalicist. please PLEASE tell me you are not one of those newfangled dangling babies over sewers to pee and poop parents ive started seeing lately."
Rob, pissing directly into the sewer is super-green!
Posted by: denton at September 8, 2009 5:32 PM
Denton, I'd have that checked out.
Posted by: DitmasSnark at September 8, 2009 5:58 PM
Father of 3 here the guy needs to carpet his apt.
And since we're pushing buttons.... this is exactly why I would never buy an "apt" especially in a Browndo or new construction. How can one really say they own when he/she does not have absolute control of thier surrondings. That 100k down payment could of went towards a house.
Posted by: jack slade at September 8, 2009 6:59 PM
Cannot believe some of these "kids will be kids responses" -- you can bet your ass that if the upstairs neighbor had to deal with loud music, rumbling movie bass, or other "single person" noises consistently for 45 min intervals at times that were not in line with the "children's schedule" there would be hell to pay...
"But they are children and you are an adult who can make a conscious choice..." I don't buy it -- children can learn rules of behaviour, just like the average single tenant knows not to crank music at 2AM.
Posted by: davide5 at September 9, 2009 12:37 AM
A right to peace and quiet? Wow....the entitlement of some people are ridiculous. Try to enforce that right- with the condo board or with the police or anyone else. I know people who have been living with noise for years...louder than a child running...and more obnoxious...and they can't do anything about it. Creative solutions do not always work and it always comes down to whether someone wants to move or not.
I think if you realize that at the end of the day- no matter what you do- there is no way the upstairs people can be forced to move because of issue, then your approach to the problem will be based on mutual respect and give and take. Laws requiring 80% of the floor to be covered? Really...some of the comments on here are beyond crazy.
Posted by: panda10 at September 9, 2009 10:48 AM
Kids will run yes, but people are totally normal to be annoyed by hearing it in their own home. Their home they paid a lot of money for. Both sides need to compromise. Carpet and no shoes upstairs and earplugs below. I think the building is the real villain here. Is this a new condo development or a browndo, in an older building? It's absurd you can't get more soundproofing between floors and ceilings in the new condo buildings for what you pay for them. If I were I condo developer I'd build soundproofed units and market them specifically as such. They'd be a huge success with how many people in Brooklyn suffer from chronic neighbor noise.
Posted by: traditionalmod at September 9, 2009 10:50 AM
this whole comment thread seems to reiterate the kids vs non kids issue, which i don't think should be the argument.
people have a legal right to "quiet enjoyment" in their homes. bloomberg has even made noise regulations to address this. i understand that children make noise, but that doesn't address the fact that the people who live in the apartments surrounding the child have a legal right to peace and quiet. (and i've often found that the people making the noise have a "learn to live in a city/apartment" mentality that everyone should have to deal with xx amounts of noise. but to what degree?
nearly all apartments have to adhere to the xx% rule, and i'd start by finding that info out and then approaching the parents again. if not, then go to the condo board and DO NOT BACK DOWN.
as for drop ceilings, i've lived with them and can tell you that they barely work and are hideous. more so, i don't think a person who owns an apartment should have to alter that apartment because neighbors refuse to follow the laws or even be reasonable.
you have rights. use them.
Posted by: grumpygirl at September 9, 2009 10:56 AM
and yes, panda, google "quiet enjoyment". it's not a fantasy, it's the law.
Posted by: grumpygirl at September 9, 2009 10:57 AM
Where has common sense gone... it's not too common anymore I guess...
I raised a child in an apartment over another family, and
running and jumping was not an acceptable form of entertainment indoors...
It's a parents responsibility to set some limits and to gear their children into quiet activities when they're inside... allowing kids to run amok in an apartment is just a sign of lazy parenting... how will the kids learn consideration of the rights of others if the parents don't
take the time to explain why it's not a good idea to run indoors, it "disturbs our neighbors" "you can get hurt" "indoors we have quiet fun, outdoors we can run and jump"... give it a try folks, it really works!
Arghhhhhhhhhh...
Posted by: bren at September 9, 2009 9:16 PM
Thanks to all who replied with their comments. It is just tough for all New Yorkers living in such tight spaces. NPR reports one million more people are expected in NYC over the next 10 years! Thank you again.
Posted by: vesnaspring at September 10, 2009 10:39 PM
Vesna- I had this exact issue with an upstairs neighbor a few years ago and ended up moving. Your neighbors reaction was near identical and we tried many of the tactics here, even offering to buy the carpet. For us, it was two young kids that would chase each other all over the apartment until we'd hear a large crash, crying, and then it would stop for about 1/2 hour. It frequently started at 7a on Sat/Sun. We had a chandelier over our bed that I had to remove the glass globes because the would rattle like a train was going by. The neighbor simply didn't care. I knocked on the door one Sunday at 8a after an hour of chaos and he said he was just trying to enjoy some fun time with his kids and I was bothering him by knocking on the door. It never occurred to him that I too deserved to "enjoy" my time in my apartment. That's when I knew it was a lost cause.
So, we moved after 6 months. I hate to be so negative, but people either care or they don't. Sounds like you have a don't. Btw, I have two kids, so it's not like I don't get it.
Posted by: archigoddess at September 11, 2009 8:20 AM
I feel your frustration. I am writing this after being awoken by the 4 year old running upstairs (notice the time of post - 2:30 am) and have sought the counsel of many people on this topic -- friends with kids (my husband and i don't yet have children), sound technicians, people who were raised in brownstones. Overall, the consensus is generally that while kids need to run / play, there is a need to teach the child that they live in an apartment and that their behavior affects the quality of the life of the other people in the apartment.
Unfortunately, a small fraction of people who i spoke to - including the people who live about us and some who responded in this forum - truly believe that there's no way to stop kids from running. I have heard from and witnessed the parenting of enough people to know that kids can and do, in fact, learn how to behave when given proper boundaries.
I wish I had something more helpful, but from what I've gleaned on this subject, soundproofing is incredibly expensive and much more effective on the floor above (rather than the drop ceiling) and I think it's doubtful that neighbors who aren't considerate enough to put down carpets are going to go for anything re-constructive. and even with the carpeting (our neighbors have some area rugs, but bare floors in other places) the truth is that it makes marginal difference for loud impact noise.
You have the right to keep articulating your concerns -- It sounds like you've done so with respect and understanding. If they continue to be unresponsive, I would take it to the condo board. As someone who has also confronted my neighbors with this issue, I really understand your wanting to keep the good will. I hope your situation improves. After multiple attempts to improve this situation, I am just trying to hang in and remind myself this won't be forever. Eventually the kid will outgrow the running, they'll move, or we'll move...
Until then....
Posted by: ajhope78 at September 17, 2009 2:38 AM
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