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September 4, 2009
Fire This Contractor?
Just wanted an advice. We have been using this contractor for the past 3 weeks to renovate our house. Before we signed the contract he was very nice and seem eager to do things extra things. Now after a week or so..we noticed he did a total 180 on us. Couple of things that bothered me was that even though he promised me the day of that he was not going to install the new hardwood floors (let it accumulate), he did it anyway for one of the bedroom. His excuse was that 2 of his workers ran out of things to do. Second was that he said he was going to get concrete from a truck to finish our basement (800sq ft) but we then found out hes doing it manually..claiming that its better quality and his workers had nothing to do. Well the tip of the iceberg came yesterday when he showed me a couple of tiles. Originally he said they were going to be $1.30-$1.50 each.. now hes telling me its no more than $1. What would you do in my situation? I know some of you might say why we didn't fire him sooner than later. The positive is that he is meeting our deadline for the completion of work. Many people say whatever time frame you tell the contractor..multiple that by 2..
Comments
Don't you have a contract stipulating the allowance per tile?
Posted by: GoodProspect at September 4, 2009 9:29 AM
Jee, I was expecting so much worse than this after seeing the headline. I don't really see the problem. What's wrong with the tile being cheaper than promised? I've done a lot of renovation over the years, these guys are paying their men by the hour, sometimes things go faster or slower than expected and you should try to be a bit flexible and appreciate their situation and that they are trying to make a living.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at September 4, 2009 10:07 AM
somehow I am not seeing a problem here.
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 4, 2009 10:09 AM
I can't tell from your post what's going on or how much money or harm we are talking about. Work's on time. How's the quality? Why is it a problem that he installed the floor? If there is no harm, it is better if he keeps his guys busy. Are you claiming he overcharged for tiles? Is he nickel and diming you on change orders? How much money are we talking about in light of the contract's overall scope?
Posted by: slopefarm at September 4, 2009 10:12 AM
I dont get it, I don't see any issue at all. Are you complaining because he used dead time to get a project done (the wood floors) instead of standing idle and getting paid for that day anyway? And that the tiles he found you are cheaper than quoted? AND he's running on time even while stirring your concrete manually instead of getting it from a truck? Um.. can I get this guys number? He sounds awesome to me.
Posted by: Tdeezy at September 4, 2009 10:16 AM
Sarcasm, right? This is a joke! OP got you!
Posted by: rh at September 4, 2009 10:23 AM
In regards to the hardwood. I was told and read it is best to let the new hardwood accumulate for 3-5 days before installing them. I felt bad so I told him that he can start installing after 2 days. After promising me twice that he will wait 2 days.. he broke the promise and installed it after 1 day to one of the bedrooms. The new hardwood floors is costing us $5000 (material and labor), last thing I want is to pay this amount and have it warped or have gaps..because he is not coordinating his workers properly.
My architect and colleagues are telling me if you are working with more than 10 cubic ft to use an auto concrete mixer than doing it manually. He promised us that he will be getting the concrete from the truck but later used the excuse that his workers had nothing to do so he decided to mix it manually. The night before he told me he was using the truck.. and the the next morning.. I saw skids of concrete mix in my driveway..c'mon now!
I guess the problem is the principal. I can care less about 30 cents different per tiles.. but if you are saying you are doing this and then take it back.. you break the trust. Obviously this is the not the first case.
Maybe I'm overreacting, I don't know.. since this is my first big renovation job.. I just cannot stand someone telling me one thing and then doing another without my consent.
Posted by: namahs at September 4, 2009 10:26 AM
"new hardwood accumulate for 3-5 days before installing them"---I think it is acclimate not accumulate.
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 4, 2009 10:38 AM
Maybe the OP has a point about the hardwood floors accumulation issue which I totally cannot understand, but I'd hate to work him.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at September 4, 2009 10:41 AM
Wood is going to shift summer/winter regardless. If it sat for 3 days in high humidity you'd exacerbate the problem. I'd address each of these issues separately. He seems to have told you about the tile price - so maybe he's taking the difference off the final bill? Ask him about it. I can't comment on the cement but I do agree that paid labor is usually expensive & better to have them doing something.
Posted by: Arkady at September 4, 2009 10:42 AM
So the bottom line is- is he charging you more? Is the work good? You're paying less per tile and you're complaining? You need to step back and look at the big picture because if you fire this guy over such foolishness, your next contractor could give you serious agita- adding more money to the quote, sitting around for hours because his men "have nothing to do" and don't care enough to find something to do. Maybe you're just inexperienced but think how totally ridiculous it sounds to complain that the tile you want is actually going to cost less than the contractor thought. Give the man a kiss, not a kick.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 4, 2009 10:46 AM
I guess I failed to mention that in the contract all the renovation work already has a price for it. e.g., Finishing the basement is $20K, and the tile price was not in the contract..he just verbally told me. So regardless if the tile is $1 or $1.50...end result is the same cost for the basement finishing.
Posted by: namahs at September 4, 2009 11:01 AM
I've heard about letting the floors sit.
OK, here's what I would do. Have a sit down with the contractor and the architect. Trust is important and you are always going to know the least about anything and you need to be able to trust the contractor going forward. Let the architect push the contractor in a friendly way on the quality issues. Lay it out there that you need to know that if the contractor alters from agreed plans on an issue affecting quality, you need to be able to trust, and you want it run through the architect first. Perhaps you want to get a guarantee on the work now, not at the end, in case the contractor leaves early and you end up with warped floors. Architect can then advise you privately whether contractor is basically ok or if you have a real problem. Where you should end up is that teh contractor ahs some flexibility, but anything significant must go through the architect. Lurking in the background is the threat that architect will advise you to hold back an installment for something not done right. Don't do this with too heavy a hand, but contractor will get the message. I'd also let him pocket the tile savings with the understanding that you are going to expect some give on changes and little extras going forward.
Posted by: slopefarm at September 4, 2009 11:15 AM
So- you're not losing anything. Why make mountains out of molehills? Trust me, you'll have mountains to make mountain out of at some point, but this isn't it.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 4, 2009 11:16 AM
Do you like the tiles? If yes then relax and let him make a little money for being a good shopper.As for trust did he tell you about the price difference? Would you have known? As for the concrete if this is a floor slab and he used a pre-mix without too much water it will be fine, if it was structural it would be a big deal but transit mixed is much better and usually cheaper. If the wood came from a humid warehouse in Georgia you might have a problem, if it is narrow strip oak it should be OK. It seems like he's doing his best to keep on schedule and some compromises are to be expected.
Posted by: edifice rex at September 4, 2009 11:31 AM
PS. if you do fire him you will reget it.
Posted by: edifice rex at September 4, 2009 11:31 AM
Fire him and I guarantee the new contractor will start complaining about what a lousy job the old guy did, tell you now he'll have to do extra work at a higher price, and any problems - it's the old guy's fault. Stick with him or you'll have much bigger problems.
And, maybe consider you offered your side of the story here and most people stilll think you, not the contractor is the difficult party to deal with. Maybe there is a lesson here for you to learn?
Posted by: Brooklynnative at September 4, 2009 11:56 AM
Also it's the princiPLE not principal.
OP,this is ridiculous. I think if there's any problem it's with you (and your spelling.) You must be impossible to work for.
I think we need to have a client's referral list so contractors could avoid certain people.
Posted by: cmu at September 4, 2009 12:06 PM
I can't believe the other posters here. I am dealing with a contractor just like the OP has now. It started with little innocent "small" lies which I just ignored, and now he basically thinks I am a fool and tries to get away with all sorts of $hit. You need to keep a guy like this on a very tight leash before it gets completely out of control. To start, I would go to a tiling store, find tiles in the price range you discussed and make him purchase those (assuming that is what he promised to do). Tell him you are not interested in his less than $1 tiles. I would definitely withhold a portion of the money at the end, pending a winter in which the floors don't warp. Wood does need to be acclimated, often for much more than 1-2 days. I have heard 2 weeks is the right amount.
Posted by: superlawyer at September 4, 2009 12:10 PM
So it seems like majority of people think I'm over reacting. As I said earlier, I do not have experience with dealing with contractors. This is my first big renovation job. I just assume that if I'm paying some guy a ton of money, they should at least do what they are expected and communicate.. I guess that is too much to ask.
Thanks for all the advices.
Posted by: namahs at September 4, 2009 12:25 PM
OP, if you follow my advice @ 11:15, you'll smoke out whether the majority or superlawyer is correct about your situation without escalating things unnecessarily. No one can object with you wanting to take a little firmer control and get everyone on the same page. If contractor reacts badly, you'll know you have a problem. If he reacts well, you'll feel better about the job.
Posted by: slopefarm at September 4, 2009 12:29 PM
Communication is a 2-way street. In your example of tile, for instance, why not just TELL your contractor you want the more expensive ones? I cannot believe he did not think he was doing you a favor.
superlawyer: hmmm...tempting, but i'll withhold the snark.
Posted by: cmu at September 4, 2009 2:45 PM
The guy isn't asking for more money- its not even a question of communication. Its a question of how rigid you want to be when basically the only complaint you have is that he is changing how he does some things and gave you a lower price on tile than he quoted before. Just ask the guy about the price difference- I'm sure he'll be happy to get you more expensive tile and let his guys sit around with nothing to do waiting for the cement mixer. The bottom line is, is the work getting done and to your satisfaction. If it isn't- complain and don't pay him. If it is, pat the guy on the back and thank your lucky stars.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 4, 2009 3:21 PM
Ok, so it's not a joke? Guess I was fooled. Listen, I have plenty of experience with contractors (it's why I became a DIY guru). Trust me, consider yourself ahead of the game that he actually shows up!
Posted by: rh at September 4, 2009 5:56 PM
you are an idiot... kiss your contractors asshole for not charging you more for being such a control freak
Posted by: eman1234 at September 4, 2009 8:56 PM
I like slopefarm's approach.
But no one here is concerned about contractor not letting the wood acclimate? That would be my only concern, but otherwise, he doesn't sound that bad.
Posted by: HmmWhichNeighborhood at September 4, 2009 9:10 PM
i agree with most people thank your lucky stars he isn't charging you more. other wise just talk to him about the tiles.
contractors in nyc generally sucks.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at September 4, 2009 9:35 PM
I have had a lot of experience with contractors. It may be nothing, but I would say "trust your gut." If you think the guy is starting to take advantage of you, then he probably is. I forget which poster it was that said "it starts with the little things," but I agree. On the one hand, be fair. No large job of any kind goes exactly as planned, but if something doesn't feel right, don't ignore it. There have been great pysch. studies about how people react when they get taken advantage of or manipulated. Our first basic reaction usually is that we get a bad feeling in our stomachs. It's not a joke--it's intuition communicating to your conscious mind the only way it knows how--by making you feel physically ill. Stay firm, keep asking questions, and stop the whole process if you have to, until you get a point where it feels right again.
Also: I have always been under the impression that wood floors have to sit in a room for several days before being installed. The reason I've been told makes sense. Wood expands and contracts quite a bit depending on the humidity and temperature. If you want a great example, come to my house during the winter, then come back during the summer. One season every door in the house sticks, then in the next season, they all close perfectly. That means that if you install all of the flooring while it's contracted, and then it expands when it begins to acclimate IT WILL BUCKLE. I have seen this happen with parquet flooring.
But don't take my word for it. Check out the THIS OLD HOUSE website (an independent opinion). Ask around. Get every written guarantee you can manage out of this guy, and NEVER NEVER NEVER pay most or all of the money until that last nail is nailed. Once there's just a couple of thousand left in a big job like that, many--not ALL--but many contractors lose interest. They've already been paid. My final advice, act like a human being. Be fair, and think results more than process. But also, think like a lawyer. Think about what evidence you will need to convince a judge if things don't go right. If this guy says putting the floors down in "X" number of days is ok, ask to get that in writing. Do it like a human being-- you still have to work with this guy, so honesty goes a long way. For example, you can say-- " I trust your expert judgment, but I am concerned as it says on THIS OLD HOUSE "xyx". Since I am uncomfortable, it would go a long way towards making me feel better if I could get that in writing." If he is a scrupulous contractor, he will not mind guaranteeing his work. Take pictures along the way. If details change and they if are not "material changes", the court usually won't care, so if after some research you think you are getting cheap quality tiles after you shook on a deal for more expensive ones-- put it in writing between both of you (both sign) that you insist on XYZ tile before they go down, otherwise a court may look at the change and say it's not a big deal. IF IT IS A BIG DEAL TO YOU, then that has to be expressed up front and clearly, or a court will probably side with the contractor.
I say these things with the hopes and sincere expectations that everything will go well. It probably will. Nevertheless, hope for the best, and plan for the worst.
good luck
Posted by: mikez at September 4, 2009 10:10 PM
I found this on TOH: It would appear that moisture content is the biggest concern-- not so much acclimation, per se. Also, the type of wood seems to be a factor. Tom Silva interviews a flooring specialist in this piece, and the installer also recommends a gap on the borders to allow for expansion.
"As for your selection of Brazilian cherry, Hunt says it's a very hard and durable wood, but not as stable as more common hardwoods. Let it acclimate in your house until its moisture content reaches 6 to 8 percent. Also check the moisture content of the subfloor; it should be in the 8 to 10 percent range when the flooring goes down. Finally, your installer should leave a '-inch gap around the perimeter of the room for the boards to expand and contract with seasonal changes in humidity. That's good flooring practice regardless of the species being used." Tom Silva interviewing Hunt for TOH
Posted by: mikez at September 4, 2009 10:26 PM
About hardwood flooring acclimating...
Printed instructions are assuming new construction in large lots drop shipped from the"sticks". If this flooring came from a local vendor, it has already warmed or cooled from it's factory of origin.
We used to get pallets in from Tennessee in the winter that had been sitting outside and were frozen through and through. They would have to sit in a heated space for a week before the center would thaw. This is primarily what the warnings are about, NOT your situation.
I would be greatly interested in the installation quality. Are they discarding bad boards (and every lot has some) or is it being installed willy nilly. Are they opening a bunch of bundles and mixing them? Are all the bundles from the same lot?
Other issues than the time they sat on your job are far more important. How about do you like the way it looks? It's not to late to change your mind, now's the time to love it or leave it.
To ease your mind have someone who knows construction (not all architects do) do a walk through casually while his guys are working. I can tell in 5 minutes if they are "challenged" or experienced. What you don't want is a laborer doing finish carpentry.
Good Luck
bruce
Posted by: brucef at September 5, 2009 1:11 AM
Yes, I know nothing about installing flooring, but Bruce addressed a question that came to my mind right away: doesn't it matter where the wood has been sitting prior to your house? If it's down the street in the same climate, then why would it have to acclimate again? Sounds like some of these rules are too simplistic and rigid. (Don't mean to be commenting on your situation here; just a general statement about some rules that for people outside the industry can be confusing.)
Also tangential, but important to ME: Not helpful to correct OP's misspelling. That's just a cheap shot.
Posted by: Nomi at September 5, 2009 2:48 PM
If I ran my business the way the contractors I have worked with ran theirs I would be out of business fast. So I agree with you that this whole 'bait and switch' attitude is really annoying and worrying. It reminds me of my (bad) experience with my contractor - I felt like I was being pushed all the time to see what he could get away with, the more little things I let slide the more bigger things started to slide. And the contractor 'doing you a favor' is BS. I don't buy that for a moment. In fact it would make me question the real value of everything else we had bid prices on.
Don't let him away with anything else, you have to be a pain in his ass every time he pulls more of this 'say one thing / do another'. If you don't stand up for yourself now your contractor is going to do things the way he wants to do them, not the way you want him to do them.
Posted by: sjcg at September 5, 2009 5:19 PM
Sounds like the guy just spoke too soon. And pretty much all parties lack experience. The wood is not from Prospect Park.
Posted by: jack slade at September 7, 2009 12:06 AM
Dam Fool
Posted by: OldManSam at September 8, 2009 2:11 AM
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