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August 11, 2009
Ticket for Trash - Who Pays?
I woke this morning to find four garabge bags on my sidewalk put there by an over zealous tenant 12 hours too early and was promptly handed a ticket for $300. They have been tenants for 2 yrs. Who should pay this in your experience?
Comments
This is a tough one. Were the rules on when to put out the trash explained to the tenants beforehand? If so they should pay. If not, maybe split it. But you're right, it wasn't your trash.
You could always deduct it from the deposit when they move.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 11, 2009 9:58 AM
Wow! Where is that place? People around here put bags out early during the summer when they're going away & haven't gotten tickets. I'd try contesting them - you'd likely get a reduction.
Posted by: Arkady at August 11, 2009 10:07 AM
The tenant should pay. Period. I'd first try to get it dismissed or reduced, but if in the end any amount is due, the tenant is responsible. And, I'll tell you this, the DOS is on the warpath trying to put fines on people. Be careful and tell your tenants to put it out only when they are supposed to. According to the DOS website:
"Set out garbage after 5pm (4pm from October 1 to March 31)"
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at August 11, 2009 10:27 AM
Unless your pickup day is not until tomorrow, trash put out last night after 5pm should be legal. Sanitation fines increase with each violation. Have you been ticketed before? DSNY supplies free handouts on request, which I give to tenants when they first move in, along with specific info re: days of pickup, recycling, not placing trash that will cross neighbor's property line, etc. Info re: fines (1st link) and handouts (2nd link), plus more at:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/html/pr2003/040703.shtml
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/html/contact/contact.shtml
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/html/faq/faq.shtml
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/html/rules_reg/rules_reg.shtml
Posted by: vinca at August 11, 2009 10:48 AM
you own the building and the ticket was made out to you, so you are the one to pay, not the tenant.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 11, 2009 10:56 AM
I would pay it but give him a warning. It's nice that he tried to help and put out the bins... if you make him pay, he'll never help you again.
Posted by: oe at August 11, 2009 11:11 AM
Why would the tenant have to put the trash out on the sidewalk, anyway? Do you provide outdoor trash receptacles for tenants to use, which you then empty and put the bagged trash on the sidewalk at the appropriate time? If so, then the tenant should have put the trash in the receptacles; if not, and a tenant with overflowing garbage cans inside his/her unit had no choice but to put the trash on the sidwalk, then I think you need to rethink your system.
In any event, I think you pay it this time, but you explain the rules to the tenant and make clear that if it happens again, the tenant pays.
Posted by: BklynCynic at August 11, 2009 11:12 AM
I agree with Arkady/Snappy - try to have it reduced, but also mention to the tenant you received a fine. Hopefully the tenant will offer to pay some of the fine, which I think is something they should do, but if they don't offer, I would just eat it as the LL and give them a stern warning that if DOS fines your bldg again for the tenants garbage, the tenant will pay for it
Posted by: gemini10 at August 11, 2009 11:15 AM
Bklyncynic...not every home is set up for that. Take for instance where I live...a commercial stretch of 5th ave. There is no space/permission to have outdoor receptacles without blocking the sidewalk. As much as we'd all like to live on tree-lined residential streets, a lot of us sadly don't. We have no choice but to wait for trash night to put out the garbage. The rules for us are to put bags out after 5pm the night before pick-up either at the curb or leaning against the building.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at August 11, 2009 11:23 AM
300$ is a lot of money- when did this tenant move to NYC? How did they not know? I'd talk to them and find out why they did it and see if they are willing to pay the fine to at least pay part of it. Other than that, unless you can successfully fgight it, you don't have much recourse.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 11, 2009 11:23 AM
A guy in my building keeps putting his cardboard recycling out in a big sloppy unbound pile, and my landlord has gotten a couple of tickets as a result. It's not a matter of not knowing the rules, as the landlord has sent email reminders to the tenants on proper recycling habits. The tenant in question has on other occasions exhibited an expectation that other people will do his work for him (like leaving his old newspapers on the stoop for days until I pick them up for him), which makes me want to kick him in the nuts. I hope my landlord takes the price of the tickets out of his security deposit when he leaves.
Posted by: lechacal at August 11, 2009 11:25 AM
Your property. Your ticket. DSNY tickets are a nubmers game. They bet that you won't fight the ticket and the city will have additional revenue. Fight the ticket. After that's resolved, have a chat with the tenant and tell him what you had to go through.
Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at August 11, 2009 11:28 AM
BrooklynInHome: The question here isn't whether the City is entitled to go after the owner for the ticket. The question is whether the owner is entitled to go after the renter. I say absolutely, at a minimum it can be taken out of the security deposit.
Posted by: lechacal at August 11, 2009 11:32 AM
quote:
We have no choice but to wait for trash night to put out the garbage.
omg i think i would die. i dont believe in having any trash inside an apartment for more than 2 seconds, EVER!
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 11, 2009 11:32 AM
I add a rider to my leases that tenants are responsible for following NYC rubbish laws - I got a tkt once because recycling was in the normal trash.
Posted by: Arkady at August 11, 2009 11:32 AM
If you pay the fine within 20 days it's only $100 dollars for first offence. Pay it and talk to tenant about regs. No sense damaging a good relationship if there is one. Tenant may offer to pay(if so i wouldn't raise his rent).
Posted by: DeLepp at August 11, 2009 11:43 AM
Check the lease - all the leases I've ever seen require tenants to comply with all city laws and regulations, sanitation regulations included. Any fine against the property is passed through to the tenant responsible.
That said, you should give the tenant the option of contesting the summons or paying the fine. If they choose to contest it, support them as much as you can. If they choose to pay it, that's okay too.
Posted by: nmg1 at August 11, 2009 12:23 PM
The law(and the rules) allows the rubbish/recycling to put out the night before the pickup(after 5 pm the day before) so if the pickup is today it would be ok to put them out at 5pm on Monday.
The landlord is responsible for the fine and should dispute it. Most of these are reduced. It would be very unusual to be fined $300 the first time although they may be showing you the Maximum fine.
You can point out that it was put out by someone not authorized to do so and that you have explained the rules.
but as others pointed out that the tenant may be obligated to reimburse you. You can give the tenant the right to appeal on your behalf but you should be aware its you the landlord that is obligated to pay no matter what happens and sometimes a tenant fighting this is no good because you have to sign an authorization and a power of attorney(which I prefer not to do myself- I prefer to fight them myself when I get them and so far in 30 years I have paid ONE $25.00 fine)....
Posted by: smeyer418 at August 11, 2009 1:33 PM
$300?! DSNY tickets cap out at 100 bucks as far as I know. You must have gotten three tickets. What's the rest of the story?
Posted by: pattunia at August 11, 2009 1:54 PM
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/downloads/pdf/rules/digest/digestprint.pdf
has all the info for most items the minimum fine is $100 and the maximum $300 but it can be more...
Posted by: smeyer418 at August 11, 2009 2:12 PM
I would talk to the tenant nicely and explain to them what happened. Hopefully, they will take responsibility. Get it reduced and maybe split the cost? It is best to be diplomatic in order to maintain a good relationship.
You guys are idiots if you think he should pay for it. If I throw a brick from inside my house, is it the landlords fault?
That was a personal action taken by the tenant. Unless he was instructed, employed or coerced, he is responsible for his own actions.
*rob* - your postings in this thread is absolutely horrendous and useless.
Posted by: crimsonson at August 11, 2009 3:02 PM
"*rob* - your postings in this thread is absolutely horrendous and useless."
This thread?
Posted by: denton at August 11, 2009 3:38 PM
crimonson. NY law makes the landlord absolutely liable when it becomes to properly handling the garbage.
If you are the super and you throw the brick- the landlord is liable. If you are merely a tenant-it depends- did the landlord have knowledge that you throw bricks and did nothing about it?
but the garbage thing is absolute.
You can of course collect it back from the tenant if the lease so provides...
and yes that makes it difficult for the landlord welcome to the NY world of impossible tasks for a landlord... garbage being just one of them.
While the tenant may have responsibility back to the landlord its still the landlords fine(which he can get reduced and sometimes even dismissed)
Posted by: smeyer418 at August 11, 2009 4:01 PM
Here is what you do, post a note in the lobby stating that only 5-6pm on trash days only. In addition, goto 66 john st and explain to the judge it was a new tenant or next door so they can reduced the fine to 75. I did it and it worked!
Posted by: bblamchops at August 11, 2009 6:16 PM
I don't get it. It appears the tenant thought they were doing a nice thing by putting out the trash. I don't understand how they put the trash out 12 hours too early if you woke up to find it there. Did they put it out in the morning when the next pick up wasn't until the following morning? If so, I would explain the rules to them and then ask for half of the fine or permit them to challenge it. I'm just not clear on the facts here.
Posted by: orestes at August 11, 2009 6:44 PM
I forget the wording but it's part of my lease that the tenant is responsible to reimburse the landlord for any fines caused by the tenant's act or neglect. Even without that rider, I believe it is implied as the tenant is responsible for damages.
Posted by: jfss at August 11, 2009 7:04 PM
While I generally don't agree with anything *rob* has to say, I think there are arguments for paying it.
First, fight the ticket, like everyone else has suggested.
Second, look at your lease and highlight any language about fines, etc.
If the tenants are good people and you want to keep them, and if there's clear language in your lease, have a little sit-down followed by a letter that restates the chat. Say that you got a fine, and that you want to take this opportunity to refresh everyone's memory about the lease. Make it clear that the fine is their responsibility, but offer this one time to split the fine because it's easy to understand that the tenant wouldn't understand how expensive it is to put the trash out early.
Ideally, everyone will feel relieved, and you will have the opportunity to look like a nice person that your tenant wouldn't want to screw later. I think that's valuable--I would pay $150 for that once in a long, productive tenancy.
If they aren't particularly good tenants, then cut the part about paying half.
If there is no language about the fine, it's time to make some. Sit down and have a chat followed by a letter, and use it as an opportunity to make the new Trash Policy (and/or Fine Policy) clear. Explain that you got a fine, and that you have to pay it because you didn't make the policy clear, but that in the future, if there are any fines because of the tenants' garbage, they are responsible, and it will be taken out of their security deposit if it's not resolved.
Again, I would focus on being fair-to-big about the whole thing, so that in the future the tenant has not just the policy, but the social pressure of knowing that you shouldered a fine for them.
Posted by: vanburenproud at August 11, 2009 7:37 PM
My landlady has strewn construction garbage all over the front yard and expects me to pick it up and put it on the curb, where the trash collectors wouldn't accept it anyway.
She got a fine before when someone merely dropped ten advertising business cards all of the front yard. What could be taking the city so long this time?
Posted by: mopar at August 11, 2009 10:37 PM
Do You 'All" realize, that this topic got moore comments than any others?????.....and to You Mr. Landlord,,,it all depends if You pay in any way to your tenants for removing trash,,(I believe it is your responsibility in first place), If u do...ticket goes to them,no questions,,if u dont...ticket is Yours as well...You must pay it anyway..its on Your name....sorry
Posted by: Jealous at August 11, 2009 11:58 PM
get a super, you cheap ass landlord. :p
Posted by: MAT at August 12, 2009 10:16 AM
We provide our tenants with current information from the city about garbage pick ups, recycyling etc and have a rider to the lease explaining that they are responsible for any tickets received as a result of their ignoring the rules. Without such an up-front arrangement, the LL is liable. That said, the bigger issue to me is that it's absurd and punitive towards small property owners for the city to fine so heavily over such a relatively minor infraction.
Posted by: grand army at August 12, 2009 11:37 AM
Thank you all for your opinions, gives me some things to consider.
Posted by: bmfesq at August 12, 2009 1:44 PM
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