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August 11, 2009
Settling and Sagging House
I am looking into buying a frame, 3-family house which is 100 years old. The building is sagging and settling quite a bit (in my opinion) The roof leans a lot. I have yet to get an inspector because I feel he will pull the "only what I can see" card. Who could give me some reliable info? How can I make sure this thing will last?
Comments
Not to be snarky, but we netizens can "see" even less than an inspector who will actually go inside the house. Inspectors are independent--except for their pay, they have no skin in the game. Of course try to find an inspector your friends/neighbors like, but they will sign off on it as they see it. I remember walking through an inspection with a friend. His report made her run...and this property was waterfront (bulkhead, but still).
You seem to have serious doubts even without an inspector. Don't discount them, either. Keep us posted.
Posted by: Minmin at August 11, 2009 1:32 PM
Reliable info: An inspector
Sounds to me like you're looking to get talked out of this house.
Posted by: SenatorStreet at August 11, 2009 1:33 PM
Welcome To Brooklyn!
Posted by: gemini10 at August 11, 2009 1:47 PM
Yes, just get an engineer's inspection. No one here can advise you without actually seeing that first. Some of us may have a better feel as to how to interpret the inspector's report than you but without it there's no way to tell what the problems are.
That said, a few questions:
1. Is the "pitch" the same on all floors? Or is this just a roog issue.
2. If it is across all floors , to what extent? from one side to the other how much is the drop??
3. What is the foundation made out of?? Is it the same on both sides of the pitch?
I think if you can't answer these questions you shouldn't even expect any cursory armchair advice here. Like I said, this is a job for an engineer.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 11, 2009 1:53 PM
The house has been there a 100 years, and it's probably done settling/sagging at this point..
I remember I looked at house once that was right above a subway line. The house was like 120 years old.. I was a newbie and I asked the inspector "will the vibrations of the subway damage the house?".. well the house was there before the subway was built, and it's been over 80 years since the the subway was built and the house is still fine, so you can pretty much assume the subway is not an issue.
Posted by: oe at August 11, 2009 2:13 PM
I also agree with oe.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 11, 2009 2:18 PM
Robert Albani of Home Tech Consultants (718-819-0174) was recommended to me by my broker. I used him a couple months ago and found him knowledgable and thorough in explaining things to me. I also saw that he's had a number of positive reviews on BStoner before.
Posted by: Ceze at August 11, 2009 2:35 PM
We recently moved into a 120 year old frame house (a brownstoner open house pick, no less) with a similar problem.
The inspector showed us structural pillars in the basement that were installed to stop the sagging decades ago, and in his opinion the house has settled.
At the same time, he told us to avoid placing heavy stuff like a piano in the middle of the house.
Best of luck.
Posted by: fobsdelhi at August 11, 2009 2:39 PM
As an Architect my advice is to get a good insection, but also know that an Inspector (usually) isn't allowed to open up walls, floors or ceilings. To get the full and complete picture of everything that is wrong with the property when we are renovating we open up a building selectively to get a clear idea of what's really going on. Often water or insect damage, faulty electrical or structural issuses are only found after the finished surfaces are opened up and examined.
Becareful, be thoughful and be prepared to find surprises. The building code has been evolving over the past half century and before that it was all based on tradition and guess-work. A floor seriously out of level is never going to improve on it's own - it requires an intervention that will effect more than you might think.
Posted by: FloatingWorld at August 11, 2009 2:40 PM
If you are going to get an inspector -- and you would be a fool to buy a house without hiring one -- make sure s/he is also a structural engineer.
Sag can be caused by a lot of things. Maybe someone cut through the main beam. Maybe there are termites. Maybe someone parked something heavy next to one wall. Maybe water leaks are eroding the foundation. Maybe there is an underground stream. Maybe the beams and joists weren't adequate in the first place. Who knows.
Most things can be fixed. It's just a question of how much it will cost.
Posted by: mopar at August 11, 2009 2:43 PM
Sagging can be dealt with. The house can be jacked up and posts can be installed to support the beams. However, keep in mind that you may need to do re-pointing and joist repair in various locations throughout the house. These are things an inspector may not see because they're covered. The sag alone isn't terrible as the home may have already settled, but if it annoys you and you want to level the floors, obviously that could get pricey.
Bottom line, get the inspector if you're ready to go through with the home and you're prepared to do some work. If it's a gut job anyway, that makes it a lot easier.
Posted by: rh at August 11, 2009 3:08 PM
It seems like a good percentage of the houses (frame + brownstone) that I've been in "sag". (i.e. there is a downward slope of the floor from one or both sides of the house). Seems like stairs also "sag". I think that's a lot different issue than if the exterior walls of the house are leaning.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at August 11, 2009 5:03 PM
Also keep in mind that if you are considering the house and are thinking about jacking it back into level, the jacking will more than likely loosen the lathe and crack plaster throughout all the floors of the house above the jacked posts as they will all rise as the bottom floor rises, and will also more than likely crack open the roof in certain places that cannot stretch to expand as the roof will also rise with the walls. Any plumbing and even electrical wires inside those walls might also come apart as the walls are raised if pipes or wires are stretched or bent because of the walls rising. Speaking from experience as I have helped 2 friends renovate sags over the years and those issues came into play. Not that it was too bad as they were able to repair the casualties and ended up with a nice level house again, but something to think about. Those things might or might not happen if you decide to level the house.
Posted by: williamsburgguy at August 11, 2009 8:44 PM
"I am looking into buying..."
Why? The market is going to hell and it'll take your prospective property with it. Do you actually believe what your TV/newspaper tells you about some recovery? This is the Greatest Depression. You'll see.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 12, 2009 11:15 PM
There are good inspectors out there and most of them can tell you the difference between normal settling and potentially major (or just firmly major) structural issues. Look in the forums for inspector recs and ask about experience with older frame houses when you call.
Posted by: serpentor at August 13, 2009 1:27 PM
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