Forum

« Mosquitos Metro Restoration »

August 17, 2009

Renovation on the cheap

Regular readers will know that I am a Brit living in Brooklyn (kind of) but I also still have a modest house in London. Even regularer readers will also know that I am shocked by estimates that are bandied about for renovation in NY. For example, people talk about $20-30,000 just for a kitchen where nothing needs to be moved. I’m particularly shocked because I consider London to be fairly comparable to NYC in cost for many things – there are differences but it broadly comes out in the wash. This is not like Thailand where you can get an entire house built for $20k. Labour rates and materials should not be that different between these two cities.

Here’s a summary of work I’m getting done that’s nearly finished – for $35k at the current exchange rate. All of the workers have been English and legal (no cheating with illegal cheap Polish labour or skirting the authorities). The brief was “high-end of budget but with good quality finishes for a nice effect” (think maybe one notch above Ikea, which I do think is decent quality if put together properly and excellent value for money).

Obviously, going with higher end materials would have added to the cost but would not be in keeping with the type of house and area it is in. All this work is being done to help to sell the property but if it doesn’t sell or I decide to keep it, I wanted it to of a standard that I would be happy living with. The purists will not be happy with the non-original styling but I’m blending practicality and pragmatism – plus originality costs! There’s also enough original detail in the rest of the house.

If I was even remotely organised, I would have taken some “before” pictures so you could see the comparison. But I’m not so you can’t….so there!

Kitchen

http://imgur.com/oVqez.jpg

The kitchen occupies the same physical space as the old kitchen but with a different layout. The doorway is where a large window used to be. The hole you can just see to the left used to be the entrance to the kitchen but the lower half has been blocked off to create a serving hatch to the dining room. The hole on the right under the counter to the left of the sink is for the dishwasher (which I never use but seems to be a perquisite these days). The countertop is rustic beech – one of the cheaper woods but has a real quality look and feel in the thicker option.

Here’s a closer look at the sink http://imgur.com/dF3ie.jpg with freshly oiled worktop. It doesn’t show up very well in the picture but the tiles have a slightly bevelled edge. I love the look of these tiles so they are the ones I would go for regardless of price so it’s a bonus that they are one of the cheapest ones out there. I went with a more expensive sink and tap unit because I think it is something stands out in a kitchen - $500 of the budget went on this.

Conservatory

http://imgur.com/bdJjj.jpg

This was originally outside the house with the wall on the left being the boundary wall for the garden. Before I bought the house, it had a cheap plastic roof put on so it could be used as a laundry room. The doorway at the end was originally the window for the room at the end. Because I was doing it on the cheap, the opening for this and the kitchen on the right were only done to the width of the windows so as to not have to change the lintels. The left wall had to be insulated, sheetrocked and skim plastered. The floor in the conservatory had to be raised to the height of the adjacent rooms with boards and self-levelling concrete before the tiles could go down. Floor tiles really eat into a budget if you’ve got a large area to cover. These ones were the cheapest I found that didn’t look cheap but the overall floor area meant that $650 of the budget went on this.

Next, we have the real killer expense for the whole reno – the roof. http://imgur.com/HS5uY.jpg Because of the large glass area and the easterly aspect, the room would get very warm during the day. To counter this, we used double-glazed argon-filled panels (the house is also near an airport so sound-proofing is important). That’s $6,000 of glass panels right there.

Bathroom

http://imgur.com/uES3m.jpg

The house is a turn of the century Victorian and originally did not have an indoor bathroom at all. There was a downstairs bathroom when we bought it but none upstairs where the bedrooms are – not ideal for a family house and really puts potential buyers off. The master bedroom at the front of the house was very large by London standards so we carved out about a third of it for the bathroom. The room was boxed in, sheetrocked and plastered. The bath is an enamelled steel one – plastic ones, which are fairly popular over here, really are a false economy. Because this was not a bathroom before, all new plumbing had to be installed from the boiler at the back of the house (behind the camera in the conservatory picture) to the front of the house where this is – no small job in itself. I went with the same tiles as for the kitchen which somehow give a very different feeling when it covers the whole wall (these are very versatile tiles!). Here’s a picture of the sink http://imgur.com/kKrgu.jpg (mirrored cabinet and vanity light to come) and the towel rail http://imgur.com/Q86pR.jpg . Not really much more I can say about bathrooms really – I’m not an aficionado and if it does the job then it’s fine for me.

Because the other bathroom is at the back of the house and this one is at the front, we had to install a new soil pipe. Fortunately we didn’t have to go outside my boundary line to access the central sewer line or there’d be a whole load of extra work and paperwork but it was still no walk in the park – the earth piled up against the wall is what had to come out of the ground. http://imgur.com/I95Pd.jpg

So that’s it basically. I can’t claim that it’s the best kitchen and bathroom reno in the world but I’m happy with it and the price is right!

Comments

I especially like the sinks and the tilework in both bathrooms and kitchen. Everything has a nice clean llok to it.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 17, 2009 1:29 PM

thanks DIBS. I should also have added that the brief also included a clean look that was generally inoffensive as well!

Posted by: the chicken at August 17, 2009 1:32 PM

Heated towel rails are really a luxury...so much more common in Europe than in the US

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 17, 2009 1:34 PM

Nice job, chicken. I really like the beveled subway tiles in the kitchen (I used regular subway tiles in my last bathroom renovation), and the farmhouse sink in the kitchen, which I'm going to use in my next kitchen renovation. And the conservatory is great.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at August 17, 2009 1:39 PM

Chicken - Where is the house? Slough?

Posted by: Arkady at August 17, 2009 1:39 PM

chicken, I saw a house in PA over the weekend flying the Union Jack upside down...very common to see over here...I caught it once at both Cartier's and, of all places, Sotheby's. LOL

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 17, 2009 1:45 PM

DIBS, why are heated towel rails a luxury? It's basically just a slightly fancier radiator (and not expensive). Even if you are using steam heat (as opposed to the forced hot water we use in the UK), you can always have an electric towel rail (which I prefer because you get instant heat as well).

Thanks CG!

Arkady, it's on the opposite side of London - near London City Airport (which will be handy when I can eventually afford that private jet!)

Posted by: the chicken at August 17, 2009 1:48 PM

It's particularly interesting to me to see the renovation jobs from regular posters on this blog who have the guts to put up the pictures and details for our scrutiny. It looks very nice, chicken. Thanks for sharing.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 17, 2009 1:48 PM

It's an easy mistake to make re the upside down flag but it's also used to signal distress - maybe the owner is underwater on their mortgage?

Posted by: the chicken at August 17, 2009 1:50 PM

Chicken Guts Biff!!

Posted by: the chicken at August 17, 2009 1:51 PM

Wish I'd known earlier. A friend of mine has just finished a reno in Barnes & was taken to the cleaners. She lives in the Slope & got the flat when her mother died. We kept comparing similar jobs here & there & Bklyn was enormously cheaper!

Posted by: Arkady at August 17, 2009 1:56 PM

well at least shopping in US is still cheap :)

Posted by: bobjohn at August 17, 2009 2:31 PM

The guys who did my work were Irish. However, the plumber and electician, the work that requires more expertise, were Latino. I had a good laugh at that being part irish myself.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 17, 2009 2:39 PM

Arkady, did your friend not agree the price upfront or did she commit the renovation cardinal sin of changing the job as it went along.

Unfortunately, there are builders everywhere that will try to charge what they think you can afford. Barnes is a very expensive part of London and if she has a big house there then they would figure that she is moneyed.

Posted by: the chicken at August 17, 2009 2:56 PM

It was partly that she wasn't on site, I think. But other pals of mine - one in S. Ken, one near Earl's Ct. & one in Hammersmith Terr in Georgian house on the river w/ incredible retrictions - also found prices to be high compared to here. Mind you, the one on the river is so intricately tied up w/ restoration rules that you may as well hire a museum conservator.

Posted by: Arkady at August 17, 2009 3:07 PM

Arkady,
I used to live in SE London, and never had any problems, although I never did anything as major as chicken.
It always seemed like friends in W London got ripped off a lot more by tradesmen etc.

Posted by: etson at August 17, 2009 3:33 PM

All of it looks great. Can I ask what make is the toilet and the heated towel rack? Where from?

Posted by: minasimon at August 17, 2009 5:20 PM

I'm just crazy about wooden counters and subway tile. Love the look of your renovation.

Posted by: mopar at August 17, 2009 5:45 PM

Chicken, looks like our new kitchen combo (accomplished by illegal Poles...). One question, tho, is why didn't you get a range hood that spans the gap between cabinets? SOrry to nitpick but it seems an omission. Overall, tho, great job and thanks for posting.

Posted by: Bolder at August 17, 2009 6:56 PM

Chicken, this kitchen is beautiful -- and the other rooms also. I like your sleek design. (Are pictures on the fridge by the little chicken ?). Thank you for sharing these photos.

Posted by: BklynSoFar at August 17, 2009 8:51 PM

Chicken, this kitchen is beautiful -- and the other rooms also. I like your sleek design. (Are pictures on the fridge by the little chicken ?) Thank you for sharing these photos.

Posted by: BklynSoFar at August 17, 2009 8:52 PM

i guess that you do not have the nyc dob fining you a minimum of $5000 for work without a permit..this job would have cost you at least 25000 in fines in nyc

Posted by: eman1234 at August 17, 2009 9:09 PM

Great job chicken. We are particularly pleased with that bathroom..clean and beautiful minus all the fussy stuff.

Posted by: pierre de taille at August 17, 2009 9:36 PM

Chicken, I'm in love with that tub and towel rack. Next time I'm across the pond, I'll swing by for a soak. No worries though, I'll bring my own Egyptian cotton towels to heat up on the rack :) Congrats on a great reno.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at August 17, 2009 9:37 PM

Thanks again for all your kind comments. I do like the way that it turned out even though the primary reason for posting was to show that you 'should' be able to get an acceptable reno for not much money.

minasimon, the bathroom fittings came from Wickes (http://www.wickesbathrooms.co.uk/) - nothing fancy, just a nice look (it's a bit like Home Depot but one step closer to the trade). I can't remember the model of the toilet but you can see them all here. http://www.wickesbathrooms.co.uk/pottery/toilets

Bolder, you are right - it was an omission. Kitchen units come in standard sizes over here. To have the hood completely fill the gap, I would have to either get a custom one made ($$$ - no way!) or build out from the centre, leaving gaps next to the wall that would need to be filled in (and causing misalignment with the units below). This was the best compromise for the money.

BklynSoFar - yes, that is the handiwork of The Egg! It's there to hide the scratches and dings from a 12 year old fridge (still going strong). There's no point in me splashing out on a new one since any buyer is likely to throw my one out and install their own.

eman, doesn't that point to something wrong with the system in NYC when fines could be equivalent to the cost of the job itself? And are fines normal? What is the problem/difficulty of getting a permit?

Don't worry Snappy, I'll be doing something along the same lines when I buy in Brooklyn!

Posted by: the chicken at August 18, 2009 1:25 AM

I've seen entire houses renovated with no permits/no fines.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 18, 2009 9:03 AM

Great job, chicken. Didn't realize initially it was in Britain, I imagine labor costs are less there.

While I have not done any structural work, I have done a reasonable amount of cosmetic work like replacing trim/doors, building out a closet, and installing an IKEA kitchen. Most of the work was done by carpenters/handmen under my close supervision, and my costs typially come in about 1/2 of what I see here.

Of course, it's not high end either. (Though I've been getting plenty of compliments as I show the house to poetential tenants-in-common partners lately)

I'd hate to live near that idiot who commented about reporting his neighbors for work (another post); I don't think anyone near me would do so (of course, as the older people are replaced by hedge-fund managers, this could change.) Or if we get landmarked.

Posted by: cmu at August 18, 2009 9:05 AM

wow, i absolutely love it! you did an excellent job. i also used butcher block for counter tops in my kitchen, as i was on a tight budget. i like how you were able to almost create an undermount sink by lining the countertop up with the edge of the sink. it looks great and it's creative. i also like that you carved drains into the countertop on the side where you will probably place a dish rack - smart ideas that ad a nice design element. I used a standard stainless steel sink with my counter top and i think it looks dated because it's not undermount. also, i didn't not seal my countertops, except for with mineral oil and they are getting a little tired looking -- plus where i keep my dish rack, they are slightly splitting. anyway, i really like it! nice work!

Posted by: bodhi_brooklyn at August 18, 2009 11:25 AM

i agree chicken that people wildly overpay for renovations here...

Posted by: gkw at August 18, 2009 2:13 PM

chicken, question about the sink in the kitchen. did you seal the space in between the top of the sink and the wooden countertop? thanks.

Posted by: bodhi_brooklyn at August 18, 2009 4:00 PM

As a Brit with family and friends all over London, I'm also amazed at how much cheaper renovation work is there. Especially surprising when houses in comparable neighborhoods cost more, the minimum wage is about 10 pounds an hr, and building codes are fiercely enforced -- especially in listed (ie. landmark) areas. Perhaps its competition. Whether you are selling or leasing property in London, consumers expect high quality interiors. I've had friends say that brokers have told them their flat was "unlettable" without new wood floors! So lots of renovation goes on all the time and there are many more builders (as GCs are referred to there) available. Here, if you can find someone with even basic experience, you're practically begging to take your project on.

Posted by: grand army at August 18, 2009 4:33 PM

Btw, nice work chicken!

Posted by: grand army at August 18, 2009 4:34 PM

thanks again cmu, bodhi and grand army.

I wonder whether readers would be as kind if it was a HOTD kitchen rather than a regular poster kitchen!

bodhi, the countertop overhangs the edge of the sink just a little bit and then a silicone seal (applied with a mastic gun) closes the slight gap between the two. It probably didn't need it since the chance of any potentially damaging amount of water getting up there is tiny but it's literally a two minute job.

Posted by: the chicken at August 18, 2009 5:31 PM

grand army,

one of the reason why I think comparable houses may cost more (property bubbles notwithstanding) is that property taxes are much lower - so the overall long-run cost of ownership is similar.

Even in Brooklyn, where you can get away with paying "only" $3000 a year in taxes on a house, it's still 3 times what I pay over here. Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it's a lot over a lifetime.

Posted by: the chicken at August 18, 2009 5:35 PM

Hmm, I hadn't thought about the good ol' rates.

What about my theory that more competition btw builders keep reno prices lower in London? Think it holds water?

Posted by: grand army at August 18, 2009 6:21 PM

not sure grand army - I don't think there's a shortage of builders in either city.

Having said that, we have freedom of movement within the EU which means that a lot of Poles came to the UK to work (as they could make a lot more money here than back home).

Posted by: the chicken at August 19, 2009 2:17 PM

re post at: August 18, 2009 1:25 AM

I can tell that "The Egg" is a promising artist!

Posted by: BklynSoFar at August 22, 2009 8:23 PM

Nice renovation, chicken, especially given the budget. I'm not sure why people don't go with this sort of unpretentious yet simple, elegantly functional design over here very much. It seems much more common in Europe.

What is the tub surround made of? Also enameled steel?

Posted by: ArtLong at August 28, 2009 9:53 AM

Post a comment

Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.