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August 26, 2009
Reno Prices Down?
So after reading some of the recent posts about varying kitchen reno labor costs, it got me wondering. Are contractors prices kind of down now because of the economy/lack of projects? I've heard this in the news lately but didnt know if it applies to nyc. We're looking to renovate our kitchen...is now the time?
Comments
Not in my experience really. The good ones are always busy and the crappy ones are cutting their prices to get jobs.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 11:26 AM
Same experience here, though we've gotten faster service for small, one-off jobs (marble/stone installation, finish carpenter for built-in work) than we would have in a booming market. Seems like those guys are available to start almost immediately, instead of "I'll call you a week from Friday to let you know how my schedule looks for September."
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at August 26, 2009 11:50 AM
An in-law in Long Island finished his basement and got a new bathroom installed and said that the contracter lowered his price a lot, and was talking about not having much work. So I assumed that was the case.
Posted by: BrooklynZoo at August 26, 2009 12:18 PM
Not really.
Not in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 26, 2009 12:29 PM
"We're looking to renovate our kitchen...is now the time?"
No. The economy, which includes home renovations, was completely wrapped around home prices. Where they go, renovation prices will follow. NYC, Brooklyn in particular, lags. Be patient.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 12:38 PM
BHO, you are so full of it.
Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 12:46 PM
Please elaborate, mopar, on how boomtime renovation fees can illogically escape the worst recession since the Great Depression? If you can do that, I'll concede that I'm "so full of it".
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 1:04 PM
10% of the population is really hurting. 90% is not. They are keeping the contractors busy.
One needs to separate Evening News hype from reality.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 26, 2009 1:13 PM
10% is the unemployment number...more people are hurting than that...particularly in NYC. The folks that still have jobs aren't getting anywhere close to the kind of money they were getting a few years ago.
Contrary to your comment, Minard Lafever, I think that the media severely understates the problem or "hype"
Posted by: bedstuyhoya at August 26, 2009 1:23 PM
nonesense, the media overplays everything, their job is to make normal people crazy and crazy people totally gaga.
realtors are hurting, developers are hurting, hedgefund guys will have to stretch out the millions and millions they made during the boom. The rest of us are more or less the same as ever. Those of us who save have lower balances n our 401K's those who don't, don't.
The boom is over, but its not the Great Depression. Please.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 26, 2009 1:29 PM
BHO, I usually don't get into your rants but you are totally full of it on this one.
The contractor (glorified handyman) I hired approximates his work on labor at about 250 bucks a day for him and 100-125 bucks a day for the day laborers depending on skill level (which is what he pays them) that he picks up on the street if needed. You actually think that in a bad economy he'll go down to 50% of his rate and charge 125 bucks a day to do tiling and other work while keeping liability insurance and workers comp? That means he'll pocket less than minimum wage. At that rate, he might as well go work as a cashier at Shoprite of some kind of union maintenance worker and just not bother doing physical labor.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 1:44 PM
"The boom is over, but its not the Great Depression."
I'm still not "so full of it". Booms don't peak and stay flat. They bust. The bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.
You're right, it's the GreatER Depression. Our manufacturing/production base is far worse. It'll take a major war to get us out of this one.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 1:48 PM
Kensingtonian,
If the economy continues to get worse and competition stays fierce, he'll have no choice but to lower his rates. Same thing works for liability insurance and worker's comp - those rates can fall too. Deflation affects the whole economy. Whether up or down, costs are not just fixed indefinitely. During the Great Depression, people did anything to get by. Don't sleep on what your glorified super would do. Things might be well today but that is a snapshot. The cameras are still rolling. Who knows where we are going. It's logical to think the worse.
This is a very simple supply and demand discussion. Your details do not cloud the thesis.
I'm still not "so full of it".
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 1:59 PM
BHO, no one asked here about Great Depression you educated fool. I used to think that you make a bit of sense but you totally lost me on this one.
The OP asked whether the kitchen labor costs were less now then before and whether he should be redoing his kitchen NOW.
Stick with the program kid.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 2:01 PM
BHO, again, there was no FDIC during the depression and there was no Minimum wage. Are you saying that a government will miracously LOWER minimum wage if there is a deflation?
You are correct on one thing, no one knows what tomorrow is going to bring. I might get hit by a bus tomorrow and die but I am still thinking about eating dinner tonight and sleeping and showing up to work tomorrow. That's calling LIVING life unlike you and your bunker buddy The What.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 2:03 PM
READ MY LIPS: THE RECESSION IS ALREADY OVER.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 26, 2009 2:10 PM
Belief that we are headed to another great depression is reserved for those on the lunatic fringe.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 26, 2009 2:12 PM
I'm greatly depressed by this conversation.
Posted by: 60designers at August 26, 2009 2:16 PM
bho is correct.many homeowners used home equity lines or loans to pay for renovations as these loans had the included benefit of tax breaks. now with the equity gone and helocs being cut homeowners are not renovating as much.let alone the slowdown in new construction.contractors are hurting and this is a good time to get work done if you have the money.
Posted by: obesedude at August 26, 2009 2:29 PM
BHO,
I know I'm going to regret asking, but why is that "NYC, and Brooklyn in particular, lags"?
Posted by: Boerum Hill at August 26, 2009 2:33 PM
I don't care whether you asked me about the GD, Ken. I used it to make a point. It's real. It happened. People did anything for money. Few in the 1930 saw it coming. How are you lost on that?
I quoted the OP's question @ 12:38. I know very well what he/she was asking. I'm all up in the program, baby!
No, I'm not saying the Gov will lower MW. I said that your handyman's effective wage (Revenue minus Costs) don't necessarily have to go down to MW because costs can drop too. But they caaaaaaaaaan drop below MW without a "floor".
Refuting my point and elaborating on how boomtime renovation costs would escape a collapse in construction spending would be much more powerful than calling me an "educated fool".
Sell your coop, Ken. We're only down -20%.
"READ MY LIPS: THE RECESSION IS ALREADY OVER."
READ MY LIPS: THE GREATER DEPRESSION HAS BEGUN.
"Belief that we are headed to another great depression is reserved for those on the lunatic fringe."
Just like last year's belief that we were already in a recession.
***Bid half off peak comps***
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 2:36 PM
BHO, if I said I paid 10 cents more for a banana at my corner grocery yesterday, you'd say NYC, Brooklyn in particular, lags, and to just be patient and soon the bananas will be free.
Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 2:39 PM
Home prices, Boerum Hill. People don't want to agree with me but the whole economy was wrapped around home prices. From Main Street (flipping) to Wall Street (SIV's), everything was moving along at a trepid pace because of Ponzi resales and refi's.
Since prices in NYC lag the rest of the nation, the economies supported by it will lag too. It's very logical.
Can somebody please give me an elaborate argument as to why I'm wrong?
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 2:42 PM
obesedude, I partially agree with you, but BHO is saying that it's going to get even worse and soon you'll be able to get labor for almost free cause we're heading into great depression.
In my opinion, are there more contractors out there with less workload then before? Yes. BUT I personally know a few who are very good at what they do, charge fair prices, actually care about their work and they are as busy as ever. The difference is before they actually had to deny work or refer someone else because they couldn't handle the workload and now they have enough in their schedule to accept jobs that they chose to take.
Personal anecdote. My co-op is redoing the lobby in our building and I called 15 reputable companies (some with recommendations through brownstoner). only 5 scheduled appointments with me to estimate the work, 2 called back to say they were too busy and didn't want to deal with co-ops since they had enough work already, 8 didn't even call me back. This is without even asking what the budget is or the scope of the work.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 2:42 PM
I plan on putting a tray copper tin ceiling in my kitchen....and I work on the street. I MUST BE INSANE!!!
Posted by: moreteasir at August 26, 2009 2:45 PM
BHO, sorry for name calling. Didn't mean it. Let's move it into OT. I think it's wrong to discuss the economy here. BTW I don't preach real estate bull but I think your theory of Great Depression is far fetched.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 2:47 PM
Bananas aren't grown locally and therefore not abundant like labor, mopar. You can do better than that.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 2:48 PM
BHO,
I'd invert your analysis BHO. Over the long term, the economy (and population) drives housing. Not the other way around.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at August 26, 2009 2:52 PM
If things get as bad as BHO is stating, the last thing you'll be worried about is whether you overpaid a contractor or if your house is holding value.
Posted by: moreteasir at August 26, 2009 2:53 PM
The point is, someone asked a practical question about renovating and you responded with economic theory.
Totally inappropriate.
WHERE is the post about the economic news so we can have a conversation about this and not bother this poor OP with our silly concerns?!
Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 2:55 PM
Guys,
Please quote me where I said free or almost free. I can't find such a notion in my posts.
"The difference is before they actually had to deny work or refer someone else because they couldn't handle the workload and now they have enough in their schedule to accept jobs that they chose to take."
Come on, Ken. You're arguing with yourself! Can't you see what's going on. Renovation is in decline. Then vs now. And 'now' is just a snapshot for what might become worse a year from now.
"...8 didn't even call me back."
Some of them might be defunct or heading that way. You jump to conclusions.
No need to apologize, Ken. I can take an anonymous insult. Hell, I sometimes dish 'em out. But 'Reno Prices Down?' is absolutely relevant to the economy. You cannot break down your answer to the question without regard for the economy.
I was far fetched when I called the houisng bubble and bust, DJIA to 8,000, 'S&P 500' to 800, a recession, a drop in rents, etc etc etc. I don't think you and many others realize how bad things are out there. I hope I'm wrong.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 3:00 PM
"I'd invert your analysis BHO. Over the long term, the economy (and population) drives housing. Not the other way around."
Normally, true. But this time, home prices were the driver. It was nothing more than a giant Ponzi scheme. That's how you get a +200% run-up versus more meager number in prior bubbles.
Everybody else - 'Reno prices down?' is an economic question deserving of an economic answer.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 3:20 PM
BHO, I know what I said re: "now" versus "then". That's why my first comment to the OP question was:
Not in my experience really. The good ones are always busy and the crappy ones are cutting their prices to get jobs.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 26, 2009 3:24 PM
BHO, curious, at what point will you be willing to say that the economy has bottomed? Are you only measuring via real estate, Case-Schiller YOY? What do you expect to actually happen in the next 6 months in quantifiable terms?
Posted by: squaredrive at August 26, 2009 3:34 PM
CG if you are still reading.....Now is a good time to do a new kitchen but don't expect 50% off. Prices are down a bit and more contractors are available but it really depends on the hunger of your contractor. Just be sure to get many bids, some guys are very competitive now and you may get a deal.But any deal that seems to good to be true usually is.
Posted by: edifice rex at August 26, 2009 3:35 PM
"Not in my experience really..."
But, Ken, that didn't answer the question 'is now a good time' and it didn't need to. My first comment didn't address you nor mopar but he refuted it and you piled on.
square - I'm unwilling to call a bottom to the economy because that's too complicated. Before housing bottoms, something else could pick up steam (alternative energy? stem cell tech?) and push up employment. And I don't put a deadline on anything. Economic or housing collapses do not, and don't have to, conform to anyone's schedule. It's a process, not an event. For now, I will only call a bottom in housing when I see it. I'm only predicting a price drop but not the date, time and weather when it will happen.
I agree with edifice rex. You want qualified bids but, like I said above, the longer you wait while we're in this environment, the lower the fees. But it's just a renovation so don't go crazy penny pinching.
I'm done, ya'll (I hope).
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 26, 2009 3:58 PM
Lil' ol' me at the bottom of the thread.
Everyone forgot something in the discussion about the great depression, the little depression, and the price of Mexicans.
That is, the price of materials. Copper, iron, and various other commodities have fallen dramatically from a year ago.
So, not only are many contractors less busy then usual and more interested in your business, the price of the materials they will have to buy is cheaper. And you yourself can probably get a better deal on cabinets, appliances, tile, and so on. And Cash for Refrigerators is coming up!
Posted by: denton at August 26, 2009 5:52 PM
Cash for Refrigerators!? What, pray tell, is that? I got one for em.
Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 6:19 PM
Mr. BHO,
Why do you always write "***Bid half off peak comps***"? What does it mean?
Posted by: brownlime at August 26, 2009 6:20 PM
Mopar, this is just in time for you! And I'm serious. I too thought it was a joke, but it's for real.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2009/db20090821_304909.htm
or
Posted by: denton at August 26, 2009 6:35 PM
Thanks!
Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 10:10 PM
brownlime,
I always write "Bid half off peak comps" because it's a stamp, slogan or tagline. It ties into my handle, BHO, which is my market call and can also be interpreted as a warning to market participants. "Bid" meaning your offer when shopping for a home if you "must". "peak comps" for the highest actual comparable sales per property type, condition and location, versus asking price which can be way off. Hope this helps.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 27, 2009 11:40 AM
edifice rex: of course i'm still reading...i can't bail out on my OP with
this much action and info. :-)
Thanks for your advice. i didnt think a reno would be clearance prices
but every little bit helps.
Posted by: CGmodern at August 27, 2009 2:11 PM
We are a design build firm and would be happy to give you a bid for your kitchen. Because we design and build our prices are often less than hiring a designer and a contractor. As far the economy is concerned, we all want to be competitive. We give the lowest cost we can while still paying the bills, paying insurance, etc. Most costs have NOT come down, so we live with a little less because we don't have as much work. You can email me at tmartin@wedesign-nyc.com if you are interested.
Good luck!
Posted by: triciaely at August 27, 2009 9:31 PM
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