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August 21, 2009
Crown Heights Condo
I am looking to purchase a condo/coop in the Prospect Heights/Crown Heights area.I have a very low budget of around $220k. I saw a 2 bed condo, 750 sf. Cute, but small, no amenities, 2nd fl walkup. Unit is liveable as is, but I would need to put $$$ into it to suit my tastes. Priced at $225k. Can I find a better deal? I've seen coops for that price, but I know the condo makes more financial sense. BTW, the bldg next door is listing 2 beds around $400k,but all brand new everything.It's across the street from the armory/homeless shelter that will supposedely be turned into a family rec center, on Bedford Ave. Any thoughts/suggestions?
Comments
I've seen far worse kitchens in places at 3-5X this price. That's a pretty nice looking kitchen.
Remember, one of the bigggest issues is what shape the overall building is in and what the condo association's balance sheet looks like.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 21, 2009 10:29 AM
Ditto DIBS on the building finances. You will not find a condo for a lower price. Nothing is a done deal in regards to the future use of the armory.
Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at August 21, 2009 10:50 AM
The Armory/homeless shelter will not be turned into a rec center. Check with people who live around the area. Locals have been fighting against it becoming central booking for all of the homeless for the entire NYC-area. Proceed with caution.
Posted by: MacD at August 21, 2009 10:55 AM
wow - that kitchen is nicer than many $2 Million dollar places I have seen. Thh rest of the apartmnent must be tiny and cramped. Agree - building finances are important. Also, finances of neighbors - if you have owners that are in financial trouble and cannot pay monthlies, the building could be in trouble. Youre beginning to see that in fringe neighborhoods where unscrupulous lending was more common.
Posted by: saminthehood at August 21, 2009 11:00 AM
Yeah, the best case scenario for the Armory is that the level of homeless traffic stabilizes. They're fighting to keep it from expanding with all of Manhattan's unwanted overflow.
As for condos in the area I'd recommend checking out Hello Living and some of the newer developments up Washington.
Posted by: gigabutz at August 21, 2009 11:04 AM
Sorry about that pic, that is not in the unit I'm looking at. if it were, I would have put an offer in immediateley, LOL.The pic must have auto generated. I actually have rented in the area for the last 15 yrs, and have seen the neighborhood improve drastically, so I'm thinking it's worth purchasing in the area. I am sooooo outpriced on the newer developments, can't even look at studios. As for the armory, as a renter it never bothered me, but as an owner...I'm a bit leery. Is there a way to look at financials prior to going into contract? I really don't want to go though the hassle if the financials are not up to par.
Posted by: charise at August 21, 2009 11:35 AM
NEWS ALERT: The homeless shelter WILL NOT be turned into a rec center in our lifetimes, in fact, the city has promised to increase its capacity with the closing of shelters in Manhattan.
Posted by: bmfesq at August 21, 2009 1:53 PM
You can and should always see financials before signing a contract.
Coops are safer financially because the coop has the first lien, not the bank, and many condos are owned by investors rather than owner-occupants. If an owner quits paying maintenance, the coop collects first when the unit is sold. In a condo, the bank has the first lien. There is no obligation for the bank to make up common charges in arrears. I personally know of two examples of condos whose owners put down a small down payment so it was easy for them to walk away from it when the market dropped (in the late 1980's, early 1990's downturn). The banks didn't actually foreclose because they would be liable for common charges while they owned the unit. They just waited for the market to improve to foreclose and sell and the condo associations were left with years of arrears that the other owners had to make up for.
Posted by: the_why at August 21, 2009 2:26 PM
"I am looking to purchase a condo/coop in the Prospect Heights/Crown Heights area."
Not smart right now. Wait for Case-Shiller to record zero change in YOY between months. More choices for that price or less. You'd thank me later.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 21, 2009 2:44 PM
"Unit is liveable as is, but I would need to put $$$ into it to suit my tastes. Priced at $225k"
Not to be blunt, but if your budget is 225k, your tastes should run to beer not champagne.
Posted by: denton at August 21, 2009 4:46 PM
@Denton.... I thank you for your bluntness. I wouldn't quite call it champagne tastes, maybe sparkling wine, LOL. Trust me the more info/suggestions/blunt comments I receive, the better.
Posted by: charise at August 21, 2009 4:53 PM
@Brownstones half off.... please explain, I don't understand what "Case-Shiller to record zero change in YOY" means
Posted by: charise at August 21, 2009 4:56 PM
the coop on 960 Sterling Place has nice apartments that don't need any work. good luck.
Posted by: crwnhgtsluv at August 21, 2009 5:34 PM
Auto generated photo? Huh? Spam alert...
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at August 21, 2009 9:46 PM
charise, re Case Shiller you should know that there are a few regulars here that believe the world is coming to an end, or at least the Great Depression II is about to unfold. And that therefore anyone who buys property is an idiot. Brownstones Half Off is one of those people, hence his log in name.
Posted by: denton at August 22, 2009 6:53 AM
charise,
You should also know that there are a few regulars here that somehow equate a correction in real estate prices (from INSANE to SANE) as an end to the world.
Regarding this depression (that's my opinion), remember when they said there was no bubble, then no subprime contatgion (spreading to prime, etc.) and finally no recession. Fast forward, look where we are. You have to read deeper than in the Times and CNBC. That's all I'll say about that.
Back to the topic, since denton had something to write but no explanation of what Case-Shiller is, it's a home price index for resales of single family homes. There's a nationwide 10-city composite and there's an individual index for NYC Metro/Tri-State. Many think because multi-family brownstones, condos, coops and new constructions aren't included that the index has no relevance. But if you look at the data from '97 to the recent peak, the index tripled just like the values of the aforementioned property types. Relevant on the way up, relevant on the way down.
If you look below you'll see that when the change in YOY (change from same month last year) between consecutive months approached zero, the bottom in home prices was in. 1991 coincides with the experience of many market participants in brownstone Brooklyn back then. And it stayed relatively flat 'til mid 96, about five years.
MONTH, READING, CHANGE FROM PEAK, YOY
Sep-88 85.54 PEAK
Oct-88 85.14 -0.47%
Nov-88 84.82 -0.84%
Dec-88 84.33 -1.41%
Jan-89 84.32 -1.43%
Feb-89 83.77 -2.07%
Mar-89 83.27 -2.65%
Apr-89 82.94 -3.04%
May-89 82.97 -3.00%
Jun-89 82.95 -3.03%
Jul-89 82.67 -3.36%
Aug-89 82.63 -3.40%
Sep-89 82.38 -3.69% -3.69%
Oct-89 82.36 -3.72% -3.27%
Nov-89 81.85 -4.31% -3.50%
Dec-89 81.32 -4.93% -3.57%
Jan-90 80.89 -5.44% -4.07%
Feb-90 80.53 -5.86% -3.87%
Mar-90 79.99 -6.49% -3.94%
Apr-90 79.34 -7.25% -4.34%
May-90 79.05 -7.59% -4.72%
Jun-90 78.96 -7.69% -4.81%
Jul-90 78.78 -7.90% -4.71%
Aug-90 78.21 -8.57% -5.35%
Sep-90 77.41 -9.50% -6.03%
Oct-90 76.80 -10.22% -6.75%
Nov-90 76.14 -10.99% -6.98%
Dec-90 75.60 -11.62% -7.03%
Jan-91 74.59 -12.80% -7.79%
Feb-91 73.69 -13.85% -8.49%
Mar-91 72.87 -14.81% -8.90%
Apr-91 72.29 -15.49% -8.89% ACTUAL BOTTOM
May-91 72.63 0.47% -8.12%
Jun-91 73.50 1.67% -6.91%
Jul-91 74.39 2.90% -5.57%
Aug-91 74.90 3.61% -4.23%
Sep-91 75.06 3.83% -3.04%
Oct-91 75.01 3.76% -2.33%
Nov-91 74.84 3.53% -1.71%
Dec-91 74.74 3.39% -1.14%
Jan-92 74.59 3.18% 0.00% BOTTOM PICK (only 9 months late!)
Feb-92 74.38 2.89% 0.94%
Mar-92 74.27 2.74% 1.92%
Apr-92 74.40 2.92% 2.92%
May-92 74.69 3.32% 2.84%
Jun-92 75.14 3.94% 2.23%
Jul-92 75.47 4.40% 1.45%
Aug-92 75.79 4.84% 1.19%
Sep-92 75.74 4.77% 0.91%
Oct-92 75.48 4.41% 0.63%
Nov-92 75.38 4.27% 0.72%
Dec-92 75.35 4.23% 0.82%
Jan-93 75.54 4.50% 1.27%
Feb-93 75.42 4.33% 1.40%
Mar-93 75.32 4.19% 1.41%
Apr-93 75.34 4.22% 1.26%
May-93 75.71 4.73% 1.37%
Jun-93 76.44 5.74% 1.73%
Jul-93 76.84 6.29% 1.82%
Aug-93 76.99 6.50% 1.58%
Sep-93 76.99 6.50% 1.65%
Oct-93 76.92 6.40% 1.91%
Nov-93 76.88 6.35% 1.99%
Dec-93 76.71 6.11% 1.80%
Jan-94 76.61 5.98% 1.42%
Feb-94 76.43 5.73% 1.34%
Mar-94 76.60 5.96% 1.70%
Apr-94 76.88 6.35% 2.04%
May-94 77.55 7.28% 2.43%
Jun-94 78.20 8.18% 2.30%
Jul-94 78.78 8.98% 2.52%
Aug-94 79.08 9.39% 2.71%
Sep-94 79.08 9.39% 2.71%
Oct-94 78.87 9.10% 2.54%
Nov-94 78.50 8.59% 2.11%
Dec-94 78.36 8.40% 2.15%
Jan-95 78.28 8.29% 2.18%
Feb-95 78.29 8.30% 2.43%
Mar-95 77.95 7.83% 1.76%
Apr-95 77.77 7.58% 1.16%
May-95 78.03 7.94% 0.62%
Jun-95 78.58 8.70% 0.49%
Jul-95 78.99 9.27% 0.27%
Aug-95 79.17 9.52% 0.11%
Sep-95 79.17 9.52% 0.11%
Oct-95 79.11 9.43% 0.30%
Nov-95 78.85 9.07% 0.45%
Dec-95 78.70 8.87% 0.43%
Jan-96 78.63 8.77% 0.45%
Feb-96 78.73 8.91% 0.56%
Mar-96 78.90 9.14% 1.22%
Apr-96 78.94 9.20% 1.50%
May-96 79.36 9.78% 1.70%
Jun-96 79.52 10.00% 1.20%
Jul-96 79.97 10.62% 1.24%
Aug-96 80.31 11.09% 1.44%
Sep-96 80.45 11.29% 1.62%
Oct-96 80.35 11.15% 1.57%
Nov-96 80.02 10.69% 1.48%
Dec-96 80.03 10.71% 1.69%
Jan-97 80.08 10.78% 1.84%
Feb-97 80.08 10.78% 1.71%
Mar-97 79.97 10.62% 1.36%
Apr-97 80.03 10.71% 1.38%
May-97 80.53 11.40% 1.47%
Jun-97 81.53 12.78% 2.53%
Do you want to buy a depreciating asset? Don't you want the most for your money. The rental market is also collapsing. They say you throw your money away when you rent but you throw away even more if you buy in this bear market.
Good luck!
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 22, 2009 11:20 AM
bid half off peak comps, would you care to reprint the rest of the Case-Shiller index #'s for 1997 to the present so we can check that out apples to apples?
Posted by: brooklyndoug at August 23, 2009 10:52 AM
It would be my pleasure, brooklyndoug.
MONTH, READING, CHANGE FROM PEAK, YOY
Jul-97 82.32 13.87% 2.94%
Aug-97 82.72 14.43% 3.00%
Sep-97 82.80 14.54% 2.92%
Oct-97 82.84 14.59% 3.10%
Nov-97 82.94 14.73% 3.65%
Dec-97 83.11 14.97% 3.85%
Jan-98 83.36 15.31% 4.10%
Feb-98 83.85 15.99% 4.71%
Mar-98 84.28 16.59% 5.39%
Apr-98 84.76 17.25% 5.91%
May-98 85.52 18.30% 6.20%
Jun-98 86.58 19.77% 6.19%
Jul-98 87.70 21.32% 6.54%
Aug-98 88.48 22.40% 6.96%
Sep-98 89.04 23.17% 7.54%
Oct-98 89.31 23.54% 7.81%
Nov-98 89.41 23.68% 7.80%
Dec-98 89.43 23.71% 7.60%
Jan-99 89.49 23.79% 7.35%
Feb-99 89.89 24.35% 7.20%
Mar-99 90.56 25.27% 7.45%
Apr-99 91.59 26.70% 8.06%
May-99 92.49 27.94% 8.15%
Jun-99 94.07 30.13% 8.65%
Jul-99 95.47 32.07% 8.86%
Aug-99 96.88 34.02% 9.49%
Sep-99 97.67 35.11% 9.69%
Oct-99 98.24 35.90% 10.00%
Nov-99 98.59 36.38% 10.27%
Dec-99 99.28 37.34% 11.01%
Jan-00 100.00 38.33% 11.74%
Feb-00 100.54 39.08% 11.85%
Mar-00 101.27 40.09% 11.83%
Apr-00 102.41 41.67% 11.81%
May-00 104.35 44.35% 12.82%
Jun-00 106.00 46.63% 12.68%
Jul-00 107.52 48.73% 12.62%
Aug-00 108.90 50.64% 12.41%
Sep-00 109.76 51.83% 12.38%
Oct-00 110.51 52.87% 12.49%
Nov-00 110.89 53.40% 12.48%
Dec-00 111.87 54.75% 12.68%
Jan-01 112.66 55.84% 12.66%
Feb-01 113.51 57.02% 12.90%
Mar-01 114.48 58.36% 13.04%
Apr-01 115.60 59.91% 12.88%
May-01 116.38 60.99% 11.53%
Jun-01 117.90 63.09% 11.23%
Jul-01 119.66 65.53% 11.29%
Aug-01 121.41 67.95% 11.49%
Sep-01 122.91 70.02% 11.98%
Oct-01 123.86 71.34% 12.08%
Nov-01 124.74 72.55% 12.49%
Dec-01 124.72 72.53% 11.49%
Jan-02 125.19 73.18% 11.12%
Feb-02 125.40 73.47% 10.47%
Mar-02 126.50 74.99% 10.50%
Apr-02 127.93 76.97% 10.67%
May-02 129.89 79.68% 11.61%
Jun-02 132.20 82.87% 12.13%
Jul-02 135.18 87.00% 12.97%
Aug-02 137.74 90.54% 13.45%
Sep-02 139.69 93.24% 13.65%
Oct-02 141.58 95.85% 14.31%
Nov-02 143.29 98.22% 14.87%
Dec-02 145.20 100.86% 16.42%
Jan-03 146.55 102.73% 17.06%
Feb-03 147.30 103.76% 17.46%
Mar-03 148.38 105.26% 17.30%
Apr-03 149.53 106.85% 16.88%
May-03 150.88 108.71% 16.16%
Jun-03 151.86 110.07% 14.87%
Jul-03 153.50 112.34% 13.55%
Aug-03 155.14 114.61% 12.63%
Sep-03 157.10 117.32% 12.46%
Oct-03 158.73 119.57% 12.11%
Nov-03 160.59 122.15% 12.07%
Dec-03 162.31 124.53% 11.78%
Jan-04 163.63 126.35% 11.65%
Feb-04 164.92 128.14% 11.96%
Mar-04 166.61 130.47% 12.29%
Apr-04 168.30 132.81% 12.55%
May-04 170.52 135.88% 13.02%
Jun-04 172.90 139.18% 13.85%
Jul-04 175.74 143.10% 14.49%
Aug-04 177.93 146.13% 14.69%
Sep-04 179.79 148.71% 14.44%
Oct-04 181.90 151.63% 14.60%
Nov-04 183.69 154.10% 14.38%
Dec-04 185.16 156.14% 14.08%
Jan-05 187.19 158.94% 14.40%
Feb-05 189.29 161.85% 14.78%
Mar-05 192.17 165.83% 15.34%
Apr-05 194.10 168.50% 15.33%
May-05 195.96 171.07% 14.92%
Jun-05 197.77 173.58% 14.38%
Jul-05 199.86 176.47% 13.72%
Aug-05 202.33 179.89% 13.71%
Sep-05 204.83 183.34% 13.93%
Oct-05 207.64 187.23% 14.15%
Nov-05 210.30 190.91% 14.49%
Dec-05 212.68 194.20% 14.86%
Jan-06 213.50 195.34% 14.06%
Feb-06 214.47 196.68% 13.30%
Mar-06 214.33 196.49% 11.53%
Apr-06 214.97 197.37% 10.75%
May-06 215.57 198.20% 10.01%
Jun-06 215.83 PEAK
Jul-06 215.25 -0.27% 7.70%
Aug-06 214.34 -0.69% 5.94%
Sep-06 214.09 -0.81% 4.52%
Oct-06 214.29 -0.71% 3.20%
Nov-06 214.24 -0.74% 1.87%
Dec-06 213.79 -0.95% 0.52%
Jan-07 212.78 -1.41% -0.34%
Feb-07 212.52 -1.53% -0.91%
Mar-07 212.40 -1.59% -0.90% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Apr-07 211.62 -1.95% -1.56%
May-07 210.51 -2.46% -2.35%
Jun-07 209.49 -2.94% -2.94%
Jul-07 208.37 -3.46% -3.20%
Aug-07 207.17 -4.01% -3.35%
Sep-07 206.38 -4.38% -3.60%
Oct-07 205.53 -4.77% -4.09%
Nov-07 204.36 -5.31% -4.61%
Dec-07 202.08 -6.37% -5.48%
Jan-08 200.44 -7.13% -5.80%
Feb-08 198.29 -8.13% -6.70%
Mar-08 196.51 -8.95% -7.48%
Apr-08 194.73 -9.78% -7.98%
May-08 194.22 -10.01% -7.74% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Jun-08 194.74 -9.77% -7.04% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Jul-08 193.70 -10.25% -7.04% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Aug-08 193.48 -10.36% -6.61% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Sep-08 191.66 -11.20% -7.13% [BACK TO REALITY]
Oct-08 189.68 -12.12% -7.71%
Nov-08 186.55 -13.57% -8.72%
Dec-08 183.54 -14.96% -9.17%
Jan-09 180.92 -16.17% -9.74%
Feb-09 177.80 -17.62% -10.33%
Mar-09 173.32 -19.70% -11.80%
Apr-09 170.48 -21.01% -12.45%
May-09 170.51 -21.00% -12.21% [FALSE GLIMMER?]
There was an upturn in YOY from Apr to May (-12.45% to -12.21%). But there have been multiple such turns previously (FALSE GLIMMER...OF HOPE]. Let's see how long this one sustains itself.
Raw data (new readings every last tuesday of the month) is available in excel format on the Standard and Poor's website under alternative indices. The last two columns were generated by myself. More details available on the website.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 24, 2009 12:44 PM
lay that chart over real wages from the same time period. I think we'll all collectivelly puke.
Posted by: Springs at August 25, 2009 10:23 AM
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