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July 27, 2009
Renting Condos
Living in Park Slope, condo's have been sprouting up like weeds. Considering the downturn in the market and the number of available units as a whole, what effect, if any, will renting high end condo's (see NYT's Article) have on those building that are not condo's? Can they expect to compete at current rental rates or will they have to drop rent prices (which some are doing now)?
Comments
Where, except on 4th Avenue and below 12th Street have condos been sprouting like weeds in PS? Or is that where you are speaking about?
PS has some of the lowest inventory levels of any neighborhood in NYC right now.
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 12:40 PM
Just my $0.02. I'm apartment hunting in the slope right now...
If you look at craigslist right now for 2 bedrooms in Park Slope, they list is being absolutely swamped with ads for the 4th avenue condo's.
About 75% of the 'no feee' ads are for those places -- fortunately the brokers kindly print them in ALL CAPS so I don't have to waste time clicking on them.
These places are offering a few things that most of the older apartments in park slope do not offer or don't offer as well:
modern layouts, laundry, elevators, shiny new appliances, and a bunch of them are in PS 321.
The downside of these places is they are mostly on the fringes of the neighborhood (4th ave, 16th st. etc.).
Still, there are enough of them that whatever prices they are renting at will put pressure on the rest of the market.
I haven't been to the 4th ave. condo/rental buildings yet, but I may check out an open house if I keep seeing 3rd floor 800 sq. ft. walkups with the 2 bedrooms at opposite ends of the apt. for $2700+.
Although, to be honest, 4th ave. is very unappealing to me, so I probably won't bother even seeing them. Others are likely less troubled by 4th ave. than I.
Posted by: northsloperenter at July 27, 2009 12:47 PM
@ 11217 : There are serveral NOT SO BIG development in PS. There is one on 6th Ave between 15th & 16th Street. A development on 15th street between 4th & 5th Avenue. A development unit on 21st street between 6th and 5th avenue. Work on 16th Street between 5th & 4th Ave has begun. The unit on 5th Avenue between 15th & 16th Street. Even if the development isn't as big as the ones on 4th Ave, There are several condo's going up throughout PS.
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 12:53 PM
"6th Ave between 15th & 16th Street.
Not in Park Slope.
"A development unit on 21st street between 6th and 5th avenue"
Definitely not in Park Slope.
"Work on 16th Street between 5th & 4th Ave has begun"
Also not in Park Slope.
Park Slope is Flatbush to 15th, and PPW to 4th Avenue.
No matter what Real Estate agents may claim.
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 1:10 PM
11217 - you jest with that comment right?
15th street and 6th avenue IS PARK slope!
NSR & MrsSmithBK:
have to add this as now I too am looking for a rental. My husband and I went to look for a place. Our price range is between $2000 - $2700 (1 or 2 BR)
We were apalled at the rentals we saw this weekend. Most apartments had kitchens that hadn't been renovated since 1960,no counterspace, no amenities and the bathrooms were gross and moldy. One celing above the shower was falling down. I was shocked that these LL's were getting these prices. WE saw 3 apartments all in center slope ranging for a 1 BR@$2200 and a 2 BR$2400. So after that eye opener we decided we want a condo turned rental..
What has been your experience?
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 1:22 PM
If it's below 15th Street, I don't call it Park Slope. Just like I don't call anything north of Houston, Soho. 15th is the end of Park Slope. Doesn't matter if it's right over the border, it's still not Park Slope.
Greenwood Heights...
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 1:25 PM
Regardless, their proximity to Park Slope will have an effect on the non condo building. So to satisfy the need to see the BIGGER PICTURE, the Borough of Brooklyn has a lot of condo's. Many will go as rentals. what effect does this have for the non condo buildings?
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 1:26 PM
11217
ask any lifer and there's NO SUCH THING AS GREENWOOD HTS
that term was made up by Real Estate brokers
you either lived in Park Slope, Sunset Park or Bayridge if we are talking about the areas going towards 4th avenue...
Park Slope extended into at least 21st street
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 1:33 PM
gemini -- I'm being very picky for the first half of my search (I'll get more flexible around late august), so I've only gone out to see one place so far. I've called about a few others but didn't go see them for various reason (e.g., 2nd bedroom is 9 foot by 8 foot, 4th floor of walkup, etc.).
The place we saw was 1/2 block from the park in center slope in a 100+ year old 4 story townhouse. It was in the process of being renovated with new kitchen and bathroom. The bathroom was mostly done and looked pretty nice. I think the rent price was $2650 or maybe $2700.
It is a nice enough place, but the bedrooms are at opposite ends of the apt. which is not really what I want and overall it was a little small for our needs (although better than our current place, and we could certainly do worse).
The block and building are really nice and the owner seems like a good guy. I'm sure someone will be happy with it.
Posted by: northsloperenter at July 27, 2009 1:33 PM
MrsSmithBK
I think yes these new condos that will turn rental will have an impact on apartments that have been able to command high rents for crap conditions
As I said in my previous post - I was shocked that for $2400 I was getting a 1.5 bedroom on a 3rd floor walk up that hadn't been renvoated since 1960, hadn't been painted in the past few years and had a leaky celing in the moldy bathroom!
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 1:35 PM
@Gemini10 - I agree with you. Many LL we're getting away with the rent by virtue of being in Park Slope. My situation is similar to yours where these apartments haven't changed since the depression. The rental condo's will force LL to either remodel or reduce rents. Why would anyone want to live in a rundown unit when down the street or in "Greenwood Heights" for some, is a brand new unit with all the amenities. Something has to give.
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Mrssmith:
exactly. currently I own a 4 story bldg in south slope and we are in contract, so am moving at the end of Aug and into a rental. however I was a LL and rented out mu duplex apt for $2800 - 2 br's 1.5 bathroo, a kitchen that was all granite and stainless with a huge island plus a W/D and outdoor space - so it was crazy to me going to see some places this weekend and looking at these trash bins for $400 less than what I was asking for my rental unit - it just made me furious
so I agree I think many LL's will be forced to lower rent or renovate - it's sick these LL's who have kept these places in disarray are not the owners that frequent Brownstoner - these are long time owners who live in a mansion somewhere else and these bldgs are cash cows for them
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 1:43 PM
"ask any lifer and there's NO SUCH THING AS GREENWOOD HTS"
Ask any lifer, and Park Slope ends at 3rd Street.
Or 9th at the farthest.
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 1:48 PM
11217 - you know you are crazy!
my husband and all his friends grew up in Park Slope on all diff streets there. Maybe back then you didn't want to hang out on 12th street and 6th avenue b/c it wasn't ideal - but it was still called Park Slope!
The Greenwood Hts moniker was newly created in the past few years as was "south slope by realtors, so if that's the case,then what would you call 15th street and 7th avenue - sunset park?? um don't think so!
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 1:59 PM
Neighborhood boundaries (fighting over them at least) is silly, Gem. We are better than this.
But yes...both my neighbors have lived in the same building for over 45 years (they are both over 90) and they both think (still!) that Park Slope ends at 3rd Street. Neither of them even venture beyond the named streets. I'm serious!! They are too funny.
15th and 7th I'd call Park Slope.
16th and 7th I'd call Greenwood Heights.
It doesn't matter that it's a recent occurrence...I don't like to live in the past.
The city states that Park Slope ends at 15th. Why are you fighting me on this one!?
;)
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 2:03 PM
Such the lively debate. Only in Brooklyn can neighborhood lines be drawn so precisly. Gemini, good luck on your search. If you find anything appealing I would love to hear what you think.
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 2:05 PM
11217 - am fighting b/c well I'm Irish and we like to fight. But according to my husband, it was all Park Slope - but no one really dared to go past 9th street as that was like a whole other world - according to him, so I appreciate your old neighbors not thinking Park Slope was past Carroll....
but seriously - am fighting it b/c then what do we call a spanse of streets and avenues that really isn't considered Sunset Park? Where does the "city" say that Park Slope ends on 15th?
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 2:21 PM
Gemini, 11217 is yanking your chain. : )
During the '80s it never occurred to me to go past 9th St., I didn't care WHAT it was called : )
Posted by: jland at July 27, 2009 3:00 PM
I guess the city doesn't recognize South Slope. It used to start at 9th Street, these days it seems around 15th Street.
But this development on 6th Ave and 15th Street certainly does not have the location of 'prime park slope'.
Notwithstanding what some people think about 4th Ave condos like the Novo and the Crest, if I was 25 and looking for a rental, the location, a block from all the bars and restaurants on 5th Avenue, as well as proximity to the subway, would certainly be attractive.
Posted by: denton at July 27, 2009 3:05 PM
Yeah, if I were 25, the 4th ave condos would be much more appealing. In fact, they are nicer than where I was living when I was 25.
Of course, when I was 25, I couldn't have afforded them...
Posted by: northsloperenter at July 27, 2009 3:09 PM
As a park slope landlord I don't believe the new developments on 4th will have any affect on park slope rents for a few reasons:
1. The rent they charge for a new condo apartment on 4th is very high (and you get small bedrooms with low ceilings and no character).
2. 4th avenue will NEVER have the charm of proper park slope! Not now, not 10 years from now! There is nothing more beautiful then a row of stately brownstones in a tree lined block.
My brownstones my not have new construction with marble flooring and steel appliances....but they do have tall tin ceilings, exposed brick walls, and are on beautiful tree lined streets.
Gemini10 - My park slope apartments have brand new bathrooms with no mold and large kitchens. I rent them for less then $1800 per month. When I do place an apartment on craigslist, it never stays on the market for more then 2 days. You simply need to look better. Additionaly, you can call 6th and 15th park slope...but it does not look like park slope, does not feel like park slope, does not smell like park slope. If it looks like a duck.....
11217 - I agree with your park slope definition.
Posted by: landlord at July 27, 2009 3:27 PM
I think the overall point is non condo rentals and condo's will compete for the same tenants. How does the non condo rental compete against units that are cleaner, nicer, in some cases larger and much more modern? Why would a realtor work with the non condo LL especially when they can see the potential for more money? If there are any LL on the forum I would like for their opinion.
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 3:30 PM
Landlord,
I totally agree with all your points about the charm of PS. However, that same charm is certainly not the selling point in Williamsburg and I can guess that LL there might have this similar issue as well. Removing the charm factor, how does a LL compete with a Condo that are competing for the same middle to high end tenants?
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 3:40 PM
MrSmith - removing the charm factor I will have serious competition. If 3ed avenue between 5th and 6th looked like 4th avenue....I would be worried.
All thats left to say is...Viva La Difference!
Posted by: landlord at July 27, 2009 3:45 PM
In that respect, would it be wise to modernize (which in some ways will dilute the charm) or to lower rents (which will dilute your pockets)?
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 3:50 PM
Landlord - I think it's a bit naive to think that renters just want to live in any old apartment on a stately brownstone street - you are fooling yourself. Am sure your place is nice and all - but if it was wouldn't you be able to command the rents that I was seeing apartments for? Please! - don;t tell me about Park Slope for reals!
I live in South Slope now and command a higher price for my duplex rental than apparently you can with your name street apartment
so there :P
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 4:06 PM
A bunch of you people take these internets way to seriously.
As a 'lifer- I confimr Gemini's rant in that back in the day, a hand full of these nabes did not exist- at least not by the appellation they retain now.
Keep at it folks.
Posted by: Brooklynchimp at July 27, 2009 4:23 PM
Back in the day, we had slaves too.
Does that mean we should continue that tradition...?
I don't get the "because it was x back in the day, it must be x today"
Evolve people, evolve.
;)
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 4:40 PM
gemini10 - I am glad that you are getting great rent for your duplex. my apartments are not duplexs. If they were, the rent would reflect that. Additionaly I charge below market to ensure the apartments get rented ASAP.
If you want to compare apples to apples lets compare $/sq foot.
Posted by: landlord at July 27, 2009 4:46 PM
11217
why on earth would someone who lets say has lived on 17th street btwn 7th and 6th avenue for 20 years and always considered themselves living in Park Slope now want to consider themselves living in Greenwood Hts - that certainly isn't a step up, is it?
I don't mind the whole North/Center/South argument - but please let's not make someone who has lived on 17th street for 25 years now have to call their town - Greenwood Hts b/c someone in the Northslope doesn't want to be connected by namesake
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 5:00 PM
Remind me to come see both you guys when I need an new apartment. This debate is a great one!
Posted by: MrSmithBK at July 27, 2009 5:02 PM
If by evolve you mean fatuously appropriating the brink to where you reside. I'd consider your definition droll.
Pretentious lilies afraid to 'evolve their own identities, self appoint themselves to false capacities in the attempt to fit in.
They're way too many people like you sir. We call them posers, but I'm sure that's too pedestrian for you.
Evolve-
;}
Posted by: Brooklynchimp at July 27, 2009 5:08 PM
They're = There are {stupid self correcting phones}
This must be the type of evolution you subscribe to. lol
Posted by: Brooklynchimp at July 27, 2009 5:12 PM
I guess the difference between us Gem is that I don't consider Greenwood Heights an inferior neighborhood to Park Slope, nor do I consider Park Slope a more superior one to Greenwood Heights. It is what is is. It's geography.
Only people I know who call 17th Park Slope are brokers.
And I don't take constructive criticism well from someone with the name "brooklynchimp"
Sorry. That evolve comment was clearly directed towards you.
Gem is well...a gem. Even if she does live in Greenwood Heights now.
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 5:14 PM
11217 - but I may just be moving closer to your parts 11217 - hahahaha!
Posted by: gemini10 at July 27, 2009 5:17 PM
OMG....after you just dissed me for living in the north?!
We don't want your kind up here!!!
;))
Posted by: 11217 at July 27, 2009 5:19 PM
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