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July 23, 2009
Question on Medallions
We are doing an electrical upgrade in our Park Slope brownstone to include wiring to all the chandeliers. There are several original medallions between the chandeliers and the ceiling. Our electricians have informed us that, according to current code, the chandeliers have to be attached directly to newly-installed boxes in the ceiling, thus precluding the possibility of keeping these medallions since they create a separation of up to 6 inches between the chandelier and the box.
Does this make sense? Has anyone dealt with this before? Any creative solutions?
Comments
There's no reason why the electrician has to install the light fixtures. Do it yourself,or have it done by a handyman after the electrician is done.
Alternatively, if you have old round boxes attached to gas pipes, perhaps you can avoid replacing them. Gas pipes make very secure hangers for heavy fixtures (whether or not they're "to code").
Posted by: Bob Marvin at July 22, 2009 10:00 PM
Agree with the old gas lines. A lot of these guys think "renovation" and not "restoration". Check the code and ask the landmark folks even if your area is not landmarked.
Posted by: jack slade at July 22, 2009 10:23 PM
The electricians are both correct and limited in vision.
It is a simple exercise to fabricate a mount that will accomodate an expansion bracket, satisfying code with minimal expense. We do this in metal stud mostly, but wood would work also.
Posted by: brucef at July 22, 2009 10:35 PM
Running a new line and replacing the box in an antique plaster medallion is difficult and puts the medallion at risk. I have seen many beautiful medallions bite the dust because they are fragile. You would need to open up the center hole to make room for a new box. Your options are to let the electricians do their work and buy a new plaster medallion or keep your original set up and hang your fixtures off the old gas pipe. Most electricians ( and contractors ) do not want to take extra time to preserve old world detail, they just want to get the job done.
Posted by: Rick at July 23, 2009 7:01 AM
The historic Victorian brass chandeliers all use a large "nipple" that's about 6" wide and drops about 7-8" to cover any electric box, gas pipe connection or extensions. You'll be able to find these if you search "victorian light fixtures" or lighting hardware.
Here's an example:
I have bought a number of fixtures from this seller.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 23, 2009 8:35 AM
Our electrician, who we would otherwise give a lukewarm recomendation for, managed to drill v e r y c a r e f u l l y to set the box deep enough into the medallion, and the medallion held. Perhaps we were lucky, but it can be done.
Posted by: slopefarm at July 23, 2009 9:33 AM
Not all medallions are that fragile. Last Summer, I removed the light fixture from my bedroom, in preparation for having a tin ceiling installed. The ceiling was in very bad shape and we didn't want the mess of taking it down and replacing it. It turns out that the wide pan on the light fixture was holding up a sagging portion of the ceiling, which fell, taking the medallion with it. The medallion survived the fall in perfect shape. I was glad that I wouldn't have to cover it with tin and could set it aside for future use elsewhere. I was NOT so glad about having to sweep up a lot of plaster moments before the tin ceiling installers arrived. It could have been worse--the ceiling section was considerate enough to wait until I was no longer on a ladder, under it, before letting go.
Anyway, the point of this long story was that you MIGHT be able to remove the medallion intact, if all else fails {although my suggestion would be to keep the old box if at all possible).
Posted by: Bob Marvin at July 23, 2009 11:27 AM
A slight correction, to Dave's info: the part he's referring to is called the canopy.
Here's a fer instance: http://www.rejuvenation.com/fixshowC281/templates/selection.phtml
In the electrical world, a nipple is a shortish section of pipe with threading on both ends, if not all the way.
I thought Dave knew this stuff! :-)
Whatever you do, don't let those electricians (or any other mechanics) talk you out of your historic details. There's always a way!
Posted by: CommodoreStephenDecatur at July 23, 2009 11:33 AM
Many old canopies have a decorative brass pipe running through the center, hiding the threaded pipe that attaches to the box. These are MUCH easier to use than modern canopies, or even normal repros, because you can push the canopy down on the pipe, physically attach the light fixture to the box and then attach the wires. Lastly you push the canopy up and secure it over the wires, gas pipe, etc. I don't know if anyone makes repros of these. In any case I treasure my old canopies. I hate having to make the electrical connection before hanging a fixture.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at July 23, 2009 12:37 PM
You might be able to find the part(s) you need here: http://www.grandbrass.com/
Posted by: vinca at July 23, 2009 12:47 PM
Electricians can be butchers. When we renovated, I wept after seeing how our electrician chopped through plaster moldings to run his BX. Thank g** our GC was able to repair the damage. The wiring itself for a light fixture is very straighforward so perhaps consider having a plasterer or carpenter do the installation. I would also say, in spite of Bob's optimism, that some of these medallions really are pretty fragile.
Posted by: grand army at July 23, 2009 2:50 PM
Electricians can be butchers. When we renovated, I wept after seeing how our electrician chopped through plaster moldings to run his BX. Thank g** our GC was able to repair the damage. The wiring itself for a light fixture is very straighforward so perhaps consider having a plasterer or carpenter do the installation. I would also say, in spite of Bob's optimism, that some of these medallions really are pretty fragile.
VINCA: Thanks for that Grand Brass lead. They have a great selection of canopies -- best I've seen!
Posted by: grand army at July 23, 2009 3:00 PM
When I had my house re-wired in 1974 the electrical contractor, who respected old houses and was a friend of my uncle, sent an older electrician who had been trained in Italy. The man was an artist--it was wonderful how he worked around moldings, medallions, and decorative woodwork.I guess there aren't many like him now.
Interestingly his boss claimed to have rewired my house once before, in the late 30s. At his advise, we left much of the old wiring, which used BX and replaced the original (and very scary-looking) wiring from c.1905. I had read that early-20th Century wiring used uninsulated wires with ceramic knobs and posts, but the disconnected stuff inside my walls looks like cloth insulated bell wires that you wouldn't think would stand up to 110 volts. Anyway, I've had no trouble at all with the remains of the late 30s wiring, except for a top floor fuse box that cracked and caused all sorts of weird intermittent problems before my current electrician found it and replaced it with a circuit breaker box.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at July 23, 2009 4:06 PM
It might be worthwhile to consult with a plaster craftsman and ask their opinion
re: preservation/alteration. Below are a few recommended previously in the Forum; I suspect there are others if you search archives:
Kevin Perez 917-685-8752
Thad Simley 646-831-8319
Stuart Sobczynski, Red Hook-based plaster contractor from TOH Brooklyn project house, no contact info
I hate to think of your originals being damaged, however this business has been recommended in the Forum for reproduction medallions: Felber Ornamental Plaster, 800-392-6896, http://www.felber.net/products/index.html
A site to check for additional sources/craftsmen:
http://restorationandbuildingservices.com/search-region.html?-token=L280
Posted by: vinca at July 23, 2009 5:51 PM
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