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July 31, 2009
Gut Reno Estimate?
I'm looking to buy a 2 family brick from the early 1900. i was told it will need a TOTAL GUT RENOVATIONS. My broker said it will cost me $100K. The engineer that did the inspection said it would cost at least $250K. A contractor that came for estimate $80K.
This prices are so different. Who is right? Help!!
Comments
i am a contractor and it is at least $250,000 on a good day...could be way more...get an architect to take a look, and give you a code compliant estimate...
Posted by: eman1234 at July 30, 2009 10:03 PM
thanks eman1234...I'm a mom with no ideas about this stuff and no extra $ to play..i hate the idea of people telling lies and robbing u..especially if you tell them that you do not have extra $ to play with!
Posted by: artdecopark at July 30, 2009 10:10 PM
"Total Gut" means every ceiling,wall and floor stripped down to the studs and beams.
The contractor saw something different.
Posted by: jack slade at July 30, 2009 11:12 PM
Do a search on "gut renovation" on this blog. It's hard to give any kind of ballpark figure based on the information provided -- how many floors, for example. New heating system? New electrical? New plumbing? How many kitchens and baths? New floors? New windows? New roof? Are you planning to do some/all of the work yourself? One contractor I talked to said "estimate $100,000 per floor." I think this is not wrong -- but a lot depends on what you plan to do. The "gut" is the easy part; it's the "renovation" that's expensive.
Posted by: Silvermax at July 30, 2009 11:38 PM
As mentioned-
it all depends really.
Are you looking to do a thorough renovation? New everything?
Heating, Electrical, Windows, Walls, Flooring, Stairs, relocating kitchen, bathrooms, etc?
Or
Are you simply looking to make things livable for you and tenants?
We did work recently on a conversion, comm to res- garden floor through with everything overhauled- and new equipment.
After it was all said and done- ruffly 150k. It was for a rental and could have been less, but we decided to renovate things good the first time around to avoid subsequent problems.
It all depends.
Posted by: Brooklynchimp at July 31, 2009 12:57 AM
A very smart and diplomatic answer. It’s really appreciable and generous.
Chevy Volt
Posted by: celina12 at July 31, 2009 3:06 AM
I agree....$100K will not be enough. $250K is a better base estimate. It isn't just the cost of the gut reno, but the cost to put walls, doors, floors (maybe)tile, kitchen(s), etc back in. The broker either lied or has no sense of costs and then should have said so.
Posted by: PHfamily at July 31, 2009 6:51 AM
never ever ever believe the broker.
engineer is more on the money, but even then it is difficult to find a good contractor to match the engineer's estimate.
Posted by: townhouser at July 31, 2009 7:19 AM
what eman says, you didn't say how many sft but figure $150-$200 psft. That assumes new walls, floors, plumbing, electrical, HVAC, but no exterior work.
Posted by: denton at July 31, 2009 7:20 AM
What denton said.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 31, 2009 8:47 AM
Architect here...just wanted to say everyone above is correct and to warn that any contractor saying they can do a gut renovation of a 2 family house for only 80K is trying to swindle you. That would be impossible in this city, and I can confidently say that without knowing the full scope of work.
Good luck.
60designers@gmail.com
Posted by: 60designers at July 31, 2009 9:26 AM
artdecopark: the tone of your post and even your identifying yourself as "a mom.." (as if that automatically says anything about your renovation sense) is very scary. Don't reveal too much to contractors or anyone else with an ax to grind.
gut renovation:...it's long, messy, expensive, frustrating and marriage-threatening.
Otoh, the scale of renovation may be nothing like what your re agent says. Many things can be done incrementally while you live there (is it livable?) You need to talk to an architect.
And what most of above say.
Posted by: cmu at July 31, 2009 9:59 AM
Much good advice above. I am with cmu. My first reaction to your post is that you don't quite seem prepared for this kind of undertaking. You need to do a real gut check before you take on a gut reno. It's not for the faint of heart. You need to have a really good reason to want to go through it and the willingness to ride herd on the architect, contractor, everyone you hire. You are going to need to think critically about the information you get from various professionals and be ready to make lots and lots of hard decisions quickly. You are going to need to put in a lot of time supervising the job and picking out everything. You need a financial and emotional cushion because the job will take longer and cost more and be more disruptive to your life than anyone tells you it will, and there will be surprises, even in a total gut. This isn't your only choice -- make sure you want to do it and go through it. If you do, embrace it, gear up, and prepare yourself.
And don't use anyone recommended by the broker to help you make this decision. Good luck.
Posted by: slopefarm at July 31, 2009 10:12 AM
Another architect here. As I often find, the frequent and reliable posters here, and this thread seems to have turned into a mailing list of them, are all saying the same thing and are all correct. The price ranges given here are consistent and accurate.
I particularly appreciate those posts that recommend speaking with an architect. :) Have an architect, and maybe simultaneously a contractor, come by and have a look. If you're very serious about buying this house, then some (me included) would be happy to come by and provide an estimate.
Posted by: JimHill at July 31, 2009 10:47 AM
Good luck getting it done even at the high end of these price ranges. And do not take an architect's estimate to the bank, either. Sorry Jim. I also think that 100K per floor for a total gut is LOW.
Posted by: antidope at July 31, 2009 10:52 AM
Antidope, I agree that $100k per floor is low.
Perhaps I was not specific enough in my post. I was more looking at those posts that said a little higher than that: eman saying $250k, denton and daveinbedstuy at $150-$200 per foot, and PHfamily saying exactly what you said that $100k wouldn't be enough, more like $250k.
These are people whose posts I've seen over and over again and have proven to be reliable. Not to neglect 60designers(my respected competition), cmu and slopefarm, all of whom are always on target with their information as well.
I'd also encourage the original poster to determine exactly what is meant by a gut reno. Do you really need to take everything out? Significant savings can be achieved through intelligent use of existing conditions. As a LEED AP, I often try to save as much of the existing building as possible, selectively removing only what is necessary. In this way, we've been able to reduce the need for new materials and the labor to install them, as well as the labor to remove and dispose of them to begin with, resulting in almost-gut renovation costs much closer to that $100 per foot mark.
Posted by: JimHill at July 31, 2009 11:13 AM
these renovation posts always surprise me. my house was a semi-gut. one floor all new floors, walls, ceiling. all new electrial & plumbing through out. parlor, new floors, walls, bath & kitchen. top floor new floors, bath, walk in closet. total of 3 new baths (one all marble) & 2 kitchens. this was a good amount of work and we did not live there while it was being done. no central heat or ac installed. i want to say we paid $100k-$125k maybe? it's been awhile so don't remember exactly how much everything cost. and no we do not have ikea anything! we have custom cabinets & high grade floor, commercial grade appliances (viking, sub zero). i really wonder who these contractors are charging these outrageous prices are. i have a quality home and no regrets. this was 4 years ago.
Posted by: bkny at July 31, 2009 11:33 AM
ps - i know i'm not alone b/c my friend did her 4 story, 2 years ago for 150k. eletrical, pluming, 2 tenant apts, owner duplex, with custom cabinets & high end finishes also. hers was more of a gut than mine.
Posted by: bkny at July 31, 2009 11:38 AM
We've looked at a bunch of houses with architects/contractors and have never gotten an estimate of less than 150-200K for a major renovation in a 3-story house (which I'm assuming this must be, at least), and sometimes estimates have gone up to 500K. There is a huge amount of variability depending on size, condition, your taste, finishes, etc. $100 psf seems to be a pretty bare bones figure, but it can be more if you want nicer finishes. That said, most of our quotes came pre-crash, and I've also been told that contractors/architects are "hungrier" now and given the overall economy, prices are more competitive for renovation. But you also don't want to go with the cheapest quote - sometimes, that might be more expensive in other ways.
A gut renovation is a major undertaking and you must be a very informed customer - I advise you to do a lot more research before making this purchase, since you don't want to get in over your head, and you may want to reconsider what you can afford in terms of purchase price given the likely costs of renovation.
Posted by: Miss Muffett at July 31, 2009 11:50 AM
They are both right.
Your contractor says he's charging you $80k + added charges at the end (always happens) prob $100k on labor.
Now add another $100-120k on materials= Walla!!! $220-240k
Now add the mortgage carrying cost while you live somewhere else for six months and you got a realistic price.
Good Luck...
Posted by: Crooklyn at July 31, 2009 12:00 PM
I strongly advise against having children live anywhere that work remotely like this is being done. There will be lead dust everywhere and it cannot be contained while work goes on.
Posted by: MR at July 31, 2009 12:02 PM
I second JimHill's recommendation that you find out what "gut reno" means to the people you are getting advice from. A lot of the places I've seen advertised as such need no such thing. They need a ton of work, but bare to the studs gut? No. If you are interested in an authentic historic home, and original materials can be saved, I recommend you find an architect and/or contractor who is sensitive to those issues. Fighting with someone who doesn't care about historic detail, or recycling usable materials is not worth the cheaper price you may pay.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at July 31, 2009 12:04 PM
I second MR's advice. I know two couples who lived with kids in renovation (step by step, so even 3 years later the houses are not done), and they regretted it every day. Factor in the cost of continuing to rent for six months to one year, the carry on the mortgage, and extra cost of insurance during the reno to get the total cost. Three years ago, we withdrew an offer on a house that was not a gut but needed substantial renovations after we factored in these costs.
I had always heard the rule fo thumb for actual renovation costs was about $100k per floor, which works out to $125/sq ft. $200/sq ft sounds a tad high, but obviously the sky's the limit on fixtures and finishings.
Posted by: Boerumresident at July 31, 2009 12:12 PM
I have been through this when I bought a 4 story B'stone in the heart of Bed Stuy. It cost me $220K and that was in 2005. The entire 4 floors plus the basement was completely redone. I used Kohler,GE Profile and granite. The appliances were bought by me and the contractors installed it. The bathroom was completely furnished with Kohler by the contractor.
The contractor that did my 'gut reno' came highly recommended through a friend that just got her's done. I think referrals and personal experiences counts for a lot. So, if you need a good, reliable and reasonable contractor - I can recommend him to you and he will be glad to give you an estimate.
Posted by: ban at July 31, 2009 12:30 PM
Ban, that's interesting since that's a reasonable price. I'm wondering if there's any truth to the rumor I've heard that contractors/architects charge more for renovations in more expensive neighborhoods, even if it's the same work! Anyone have any evidence of this, or to the contrary?
Posted by: Miss Muffett at July 31, 2009 12:37 PM
On the plus side, I think you will get better labor prices from contractors now than you would have a few years ago.
Posted by: MR at July 31, 2009 12:42 PM
Does anyone have sf estimate of a gut reno excluding fixtures, hardware and surfaces? Just labor?
Posted by: Susan Elkins at July 31, 2009 12:47 PM
Susan - What do you mean by that? Just demolition? If so, you could pick up some casual labor & oversee it yourself. You'd have to get rubbish pick-up.
Posted by: Arkady at July 31, 2009 1:04 PM
Why does it need a gut? Sometimes people say that when it doesn't. Ex: Inspectors will tell you to replace all the plumbing -- for no particular reason except it's old.
Posted by: mopar at July 31, 2009 1:05 PM
Miss Muffett - i have never heard of that theory but based on comments on this board I would have to agree. like ban, we have a high end reno, with granite, marble, ammana, viking, sub zero, tin ceiling, island etc...high grade wood floors. we stripped and restained all of our wood, including the stairs and we did not exceed 150k. our contractor, electrian, plummer were all licensed. we also gutted and finished the cellar (below ground floor), which included digging down a few feet, so a total of 4 floors.
we live in bed stuy and so so does the friend that i was referring to.
Posted by: bkny at July 31, 2009 1:20 PM
Well -- it's a little off topic, but car repairs are definitely WAY cheaper in Bushwick than other areas. It's because the hourly cost of labor is much lower. Restaurants are also massively cheaper. A half rotisserie chicken is $3.50. No doubt it's because rents are lower there. The plumber who lives around the corner has done lots of little inexpensive things for us. But I've never tested this theory on a gut renovation. Not yet!
Posted by: mopar at July 31, 2009 2:11 PM
I am also looking to do some extensive renovations in my Brooklyn home. bkny or anyone else can you recommend either a contractor, plumber, and/ or electrician to call for bids?
Posted by: msrutland at July 31, 2009 2:47 PM
Susan, mine was about 100 psft including extras. That included all sheet rock, stairs, insulation, plumbing, electric, trim, flooring, and installation of everything I provided like tile, cabinets, appliances, etc. Did not include paint, tile, appliances, fixtures, switches, HVAC.
In this economy I bet it could be done for less. Contractors are not as cocky and material costs are way down. (In fact I probably overpaid a bit but that was my choice in that I used a guy I knew and trusted, I didn't even get any other bids. And in the end I had no major construction-related issues, the job went as smooth as a baby's proverbial ass, except for the city, natch).
Posted by: denton at July 31, 2009 4:22 PM
Miss Muffett....I have a friend who has had two major projects done in Greenwich, CT and you are definitely correct. People up there really pay much, much higher prices than in Brooklyn. I have experience with renovations, one a total gut including floor joists, in PA and MA and the prices are far, far lower.
I would assume that there's a lot of that going on to a degree between BH and BS.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 31, 2009 4:24 PM
All the advice above about price estimating is totally on point.
I am 2 floors down on a near gut in Park Slope and running at ~$175K so far (including all appliance, fixture, material, permit, architect, engineer, expediter, etc fees). Of that contractor & subcontractors has accounted for ~$130K.
What I don't agree with is all the statements warning of how horrible the experience is. Yes there will be frustrations and compromises (mine have mainly been related to permit delays and navigating the expeditor/architect to get them through).
But overall it has been fun and rewarding even though we live with a lot of dust. There is something wonderful about seeing a space that was previously so neglected and run down come back to life. And within the confines of your rough space and budget, you get to pick how you want to have it. It's great to live in a space that is custom-made for your tastes and needs.
My advice would be to find people you trust (especially the contractor) and let them do their jobs, stay pragmatic, and remember almost anything at the "surface design/taste" level can be redone down the road if you end up hating it.
If you do go down this path - good luck.
Posted by: pmmtenement at July 31, 2009 4:39 PM
msrutland, I would recommend Ronald Baker (718) 404-4572. He does good, solid work, is extremely conscientious about doing right by the client. I'm an architect and I've been recommending him for my jobs for years. He almost always gets the job because his prices are lower, but the quality of his work is still very high. Ron lives in the area and has a lot of experience in this kind of work. Please call him and tell him I sent you. He'll be happy to provide you with a detailed free estimate.
Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP
Urban Pioneering Architecture
Posted by: JimHill at July 31, 2009 4:58 PM
Jim, thanks for the recommendation on Ronald. We will give him a call.
Posted by: msrutland at July 31, 2009 8:13 PM
honestly, start with an architect...to me a gut includes replacing structural members like beams that have failed due to rot or inappropriate construction in the past (relocating a toilet by sawzalling 5 inch holes in beams)...as much as i feel that they are often fools,(being a contractor), no one else is qualified to give you a feel for what will be involved , since they are the guys who will put their license on the line when drawing up and signing off on plans with the dob, which is making everyone jump through higher hoops with every passing year
Posted by: eman1234 at July 31, 2009 8:15 PM
I also had a tight budget but was only gutting 2 floors of a 3 family brownstone in Windsor Terrace. I was also a newbie to the whole process. I received 3 documented ballpark estimates in the beginning which I thought was the norm until another contractor sent me an ITEMIZED estimate. To my surprise he had every detail of the job itemized which helped me remove or reduce the cost to my budget. Needless to say I hired them and was pleasantly surprised by this companies professionalism and honesty. I would definitely include them if you are still bidding out the job. The company is AllRenovation and I personally dealt with Pietro the owner. You can find them via their website...
http://www.allrenovationllc.com
Good Luck,
A.S.
P.S. My job is listed on AllRenovation's website as Windsor Terrace brownstone.
Posted by: allans at August 1, 2009 8:44 AM
Could ban and bkny provide the contact info for the contractors mentioned? I need to get some work done and need an estimate.
Posted by: browngirl at August 1, 2009 10:52 AM
Agreed. Can ban, bkny, and denton provide some referrals?Thanks.
Posted by: viscede at August 2, 2009 7:35 AM
Howie @ Father & Son
718-467-1200
Posted by: denton at August 2, 2009 11:25 AM
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