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July 20, 2009
Comestic Renos on a Rental?
We just moved from CG to the Heights. After 8 years in a floor thru that was way too big and way too run down, we found a perfect place, about 250-sq-ft smaller but with 600 square feet of patio and backyard. We're totally IN LOVE with the whole space (including the amazing block) except the kitchen. It's functional, but not optimized. I'd like to upgrade the stove and fridge. I'd also like to add a backsplash and nice countertops. I want to change the cabinet hardware and maybe reface them.
The previous tennant was there for 10 years and I'm planning on being in this space for 5-7. Would it be worth it to drop a little bit of money into a rental, just to make it more comfortable for us? Since the kitchen is functional, I don't think the landlord is going to want to split costs. But my husband is a former contractor and I did the interiors of our place upstate to prepare it for sale. This isn't DOB permit territory, but I've never upgraded a rental before. The only return on investment would probably be our own increased comfort if I can't get any reimbusement from the landlord. Like I've said I've done work like this before and I can do it very cost effectively. I don't really worry about the money but is this something any other renters out there would consider doing for their own comfort?or is it just plain dumb?
Thanks :)
Comments
As a landlord, I wouldn't let a tenant do any work on a rental apartment. When you rent an apartment most residential lease state you can't do construction or even minor alterations.
It's another story if you'd negotiated with the landlord on improvements you wanted before you'd signed the lease.
That's not to say it's not worth asking your landlord . . . you never know. . .
Posted by: IronBalls at July 20, 2009 6:32 AM
I had always done some work when i rented, but i sound like your being a little ambitious. I would really ask the landlord prior to doing major stuff. Painting is one thing, but you need to feel this person out, like will they freak and make you put it all back the way it was. If you convince them your competent, they will be getting free work for nothing, its hard to say no to that. As with anything in this business, it's case specific. Feel them out first.
Posted by: Old City Construction at July 20, 2009 8:33 AM
Oh yeah. I would neve touch anything without talking to the landlord!
But I know the former tennant made a couple of improvements out of pocket that were really nice. He actually added a ceiling fan that he did get a permit for. He also added some permanant shelving that made two walk in closets much more efficient. He also added some nice permanent lighting to the yard. The previous tennants said they used the landlords
regular contactors at his suggestion too.
I know some people "upgrade" things to suit their own wierd personal tastes. But this would be more like adding some functional improvements. I've put together a house to show so I know better than to add anything like that!
He's a nice guy and I'll talk to him. It's not about the $$. Just want to make it work a little better without coming off like I want the landlord to eat the cost of the investment for me because it's his property. I am planning on being here for a while. Thanks for your response! Very much appreciated!
Posted by: HoneysuckleWeeks at July 20, 2009 8:34 AM
Don't forget to leave all the improvements in top notch condition when you move.
Posted by: Ysabelle at July 20, 2009 9:36 AM
I agree with getting the landlords permission first.
That being said. I lived in a rental in cobble hill for 23 years. Over that time I did massive improvements: Electric upgrades (major), plumbing upgrades (minor), leveled ceilings, all painting and flooring amongst other things.
I never knew that I'd be there for so long, but as an afterthought the quality of life that I achieved from treating a rental like a home probably make the long stay happen. Of course the rent was considerably under market rate and the landlord was thrilled that I would care for his home as if it were my own.
Bottom line: quality of life is something that only you can assess. Different people have different priorities. If spending a few bucks on a kitchen "upgrade" improves your quality of life (and if your landlord doesn't mind), then, by all means, do it!!
Posted by: SenatorStreet at July 20, 2009 10:44 AM
great question, especially for the large crowd around here that is 100% certain that tenants are all out to destroy their apartments and screw their landlords out of their own property.
"As a landlord, I wouldn't let a tenant do any work on a rental apartment."
I seriously don't get that attitude. Maybe they've had some bad experiences, but what goes around comes around, and if you start off with that way of thinking, you'll get it coming back in spades from your tenants.
I'm a landlord, and I allow tenants to do minor alterations to the apartment, like painting. I would allow tenants to make improvements to the place if they were done by someone capable and trustworthy. I'd be a little skeptical of you doing it yourself, and I'd be upset if you did it without permission.
While talking to the landlord, you might want to make sure they don't have different plans for the future than renting it to you. And you will take a risk that something unexpected happens, and the landlord needs the place back in a few years (or you need to leave). Do whatever you can do cheaply first.....
Posted by: slopenick at July 20, 2009 10:57 AM
Many people do minor repairs/improvements without asking landlord. Ive painted, put up shelving, installed showerheads, etc. But major reno is something else altogether. One thing you have to realize is that if you get permission and do a stellar job, he can easily jack up the rent and you will have zero leverage to avoid the increase.
Posted by: saminthehood at July 20, 2009 11:14 AM
The only circumstance I can imagine where a Landlord would object to a Tenant doing responsible improvements would be a rent controlled apartment. Better to keep that octogenarian tenant living on the edge of legality.
Posted by: mod squad at July 20, 2009 11:19 AM
We did a couple of improvements in our last rental. It was rent stabilized and we staying there for 12 yrs. In retrospect, if we had known we would stay there so long, I would have done more things.
For the things we did do, we shared the idea with the landlord before proceeding and made sure he agreed. We offered to allow him to select or interview contractors (which he chose not to). And for the largest item we agreed that in exchange for us paying for the improvement he would not increase the rent at the next lease renewal.
Good luck.
Posted by: pmmtenement at July 20, 2009 11:20 AM
I am a landlord and would be THRILLED if my tenant were to make improvements. I rented for 8 years in CG and actually probably put thousands over that time into the apt - in the garden, opening up a wall, putting in french doors etc. I think it's SO worth it, especially since a little apt therapy can revitalize your love for the place and help you resist the temptation to move or buy. However, I do know people who made major improvements to their apartment and the landlord jacked up their rent to the level that the apt is now worth thanks to the improvements they made all on their own dime! Asshole! So I would make sure your landlord will NOT do that as a result of your energies.
Posted by: gkw at July 20, 2009 12:05 PM
"Would it be worth it to drop a little bit of money into a rental, just to make it more comfortable for us?"
If your rent is low enough below market, absolutely. If not, it probably wouldn't be worth it financially. Persevere for a year and exploit the massive rental inventory (growing daily) or go ahead if you love the apartment that much.
"I don't really worry about the money but is this something any other renters out there would consider doing for their own comfort?or is it just plain dumb?"
I did it years ago because the rent was ridiculously low. Only RE shills will tell you it's dumb. Break out the spreadsheet and compare buying vs renting (plus slight improvement costs). You're more than likely to come out ahead (assuming you're below market due to the kitchen condition). Most dummies are recent buyers (no disrespect to those offended, just crudely making a point - not saying all recent buyers are dummies).
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at July 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Wait a little bit until you see if your landlord is a reasonable person and the other tenants are considerate. Then sure, why not. The only thing is don't get too invested. Maybe don't spend more than $300 or so a year.
I spent about $300 to build a small counter and make other small improvements. I never regretted it.
I do know one long-term renter who did put in new cabinets and was very upset when the building was sold and she had to move. Another renter I know created a kitchen and two baths as well as partitioned rooms in a work-only loft and daily fears discovery or rezoning.
Posted by: mopar at July 20, 2009 2:53 PM
We purchased bluestone and re-laid the entire patio of the rundown backyard of our rental. It wasn't expensive except in sweat equity. 2 months later we were told they wanted their apartment back and were not going to renew our lease. Not only did they not thank us for the improvements, but they tried to push us out before the lease was up and then billed us for damage that occurred in the 8 years they rented it before we moved in. All this while we had a newborn and a 4 year old. Make sure your landlord isn't as nasty as these people were. Still makes me mad years later.
Posted by: trudylou at July 20, 2009 3:12 PM
I bought new appliances for my rental kitchen and the landlord "bought" them back from me when I moved out 4 years later for about half the price. I've also installed custom closet systems and upgraded the lighting fixtures. I did save the old ones for him. To me it was worth it because for those years this was my home.
You HAVE to ask them first. Most will be congenial so long as the work is done competently and professionally.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at July 20, 2009 3:44 PM
Thank you everyone for very helpful responses! Great forum here :) I know that this is a contentious issue. I guess the best way to proceed would probably get through to the end of this lease, which isn't that far away. I'll probably talk with the landlord then and see if I could make these changes and make sure he won't raise the rent. Every interaction we've had so far has been good and just about every tenant in the building is long term and has done somethings like painting etc. I actually have a nice fridge still boxed sitting in storage upstate I got off a contractor who couldn't use or return it and its not like its appreciating in value as an antique. If the landlord agrees I'd rather just enjoy the thing and give it away in a few years. Otherwise its just going to sit there until I find the motivation to sell it on Craigslist.
I don't think the apartment is under market because of the kitchen exclusively. I would guess that the real lack of natural light is what makes people say "its not quite what we're looking for." We've had our blinds closed for 8 years though on the parlor floor, never really was a consideration for me. Plus the layout is fairly strange, its like a modern lofty boxy space attached like a parasite to a classic townhouse room. We saw it and thought 'look, ooh, now we can BOTH be happy!' But its probably not what another couple would jump on. Like I said, the kitchen is not really bad. Its just inefficient and I enjoy cooking maybe a touch more than the average person. The rest of the changes could be made with a couple hundred dollars, which is what I feel like I'm spending wrinkling my nose and saying "let's get takeout."
But no, of course I would never even think of doing things without a landlord conference. The lease says that and its just common sense. I once lent my brother-in-law my car and he put on fancy rims as a "surprise." I was livid. That's an obvious one.
The thing is we probably will never buy in the city. We're many years into our respective careers but I'm slowly working on a doctorate to teach. IF I do get offered an academic position somewhere and we do leave the city, we don't want to be tied to property. That's in the 5-7 year master plan and there's no way if we bought would we accumulate the equity for it to be worth all the associated costs nor is there any guarantee that the ROI would be as good as what the portfolio will look like by retirement. Particularly now we'd have to take a loss to buy and then cross our fingers. That's not to say I take any side in the buy vs. rent issue. Its just that buying isn't for us.
Posted by: HoneysuckleWeeks at July 20, 2009 4:15 PM
Consider offering a longer lease, 2-3 years or so, if you do improvements. In this declining rental market, that's leverage.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at July 20, 2009 4:51 PM
Good luck, Honeysuckle. As a landlord with a really, really ugly rental kitchen, I'd be thrilled. Think it through and make a proposal that will make sense to both of you. You might want to ask for a five-year lease, though, to make sure some of the unpleasant scenarios above don't happen to you.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at July 20, 2009 4:55 PM
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