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July 22, 2009
Buying a Reno'd Brownstone
My partner and I are looking to buy a renovated brownstone in Bed Stuy. We have an accepted offer, but the home inspector says the plumbing and electrical were done with out permits, and from what he can see was not done professionally and possibly not to code.
I think that most of the bed stuy renos that we have seen and will see have been done without permits and probably not to code. Since the walls will be hiding most of the work there is no way to know.
I have a few questions. Is anyone familiar with renovations for sale in the area and should I always expect the home inspector to say the plumbing and wiring are not professional? What is the risk in buying a building that did not have permits pulled. A complete renovation. Could my homeowners insurance refuse to pay in case of fire or flood from the wiring or pipes?
Feel free to tell me your reno purchase experiences. Thanks!
Comments
Could you be more specific as to what "was not done professionally and possibly not to code." These are two very separate issues. A wiring jo=b may not look "professional but may still be to code.
The inspector should know the code so for him to say "possibly not to code" is bizarre.
Yes, you will find most places done without permits. Everything though really needs to be code. However, code changed recently so if he means romex wiring instead of BX cable, that's no longer an issue, nor is PVC drain pipe (up to a certain size house, # of units). Some inspectors may not be versed on this.
I would only worry about what is "not to code" b/c you will find work everywhere that has been done without permits.
Let us know more of the specifics.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 22, 2009 10:36 AM
Welcome to Brooklyn!
I marvel at the newcomers who land in Brooklyn, Bed-Stuy no less, and expect Swiss-style law and order and adherence to paperwork. Until the day before yesterday most of Brownstone Brooklyn was the wild wild west. It ain't Switzerland and it ain't San Francisco. If you are squeamish about electrical or plumbing work performed without benefit of all the perfect paperwork, I don't think you have any ides what you're in for living here.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at July 22, 2009 10:52 AM
While many people do renovate without permits, I wouldn't say EVERYONE does. There are plenty of people who do it by the book.
That said, not pulling permits doesn't mean its bad. It just implies that there were some shortcuts taken. Its up to you to decide if those shortcuts were just of the adminstrative variety or did they not put the effort and quality into the work as well.
If the reno was a flip, it would concern me quite a lot that they didn't do it with permits. If it was something a homeowner undertook on his own account (he planned to live there) over time, it would bother me less.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at July 22, 2009 11:12 AM
Agree with Mrs. Limestone.
Fact is, when we upgraded our electrical we were given two quotes by the electrician one with permits one without. I'm not going to say which one we chose BUT, I will say his work was impeccable.
The inspector really should have been able to tell you whether or not the work was quality regardless of the permit situation.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at July 22, 2009 11:26 AM
The way I look at it is that if you are buying a property that has illegal work and you do not negotiate a price which will be reduced enough for you to make the proper correction and get the work properly done and inspected, you are going to place yourself in a situation that can be extremely costly in the future.
In other words, imagine that there is a fire. The Insurance company discovers that a non-licensed, no permitted work has been done. That may give them grounds to dismiss the claim.
This situation can get worse. Imagine you are renting out an apt. A fire occurs and a tenant gets hurt. You get sued and your LIABILITY INSURANCE (which is different from Home Owner's Insurance) discovers that the area where the fire originates was from an area that was done without permits.
Personally, I don't ever put myself in that situation. It make absolutely no business sense. BUT, it is really up to you and your 'Risk Tolerance."
Investor Llew
Posted by: llewadal at July 22, 2009 11:36 AM
Where are you buying? and how much?
Just being curious since I just bought in Bed Stuy.
I've done work in the house and many other houses without permit. Welcome to Brooklyn!
The DOB is just insane....
Posted by: Crooklyn at July 22, 2009 11:37 AM
Multiple issues here that you need to sort out.
First, if you are paying a renovation premium (i.e., more than you would pay for an unrenovated house), you don't want to tear the house up yourself to replace the plumbing/elec./gas, etc. You do need to make sure you are out of that zone and that this is a competent job and the house is safe. You also want to make sure that, if you need to do a job in the future that requires filing, you are not going to be stuck having to redo everything. These are relatively remote but legitimate concerns. Do some due diligence to rule these concerns out. Maybe bring in a licensed plumber and licensed electrician to look things over and give you an opinion on these questions.
Second -- is the current house workable? Are the code issues safety-related? is it a matter of improepr or imbalanced wiring or not enough outlets? Are we talking waste line angles? Lack of venting? Improper materials? PVC is now probably ok for waste lines, but not supply. Does the plumbing work reasonable well?
Third, is the inspector's report going to cause a problem with your lender? Will the lender insist on bringing the house to code? Talk to your lawyer about this. And make sure you have a good mortgage contingency clause.
If you bought an unrenovated house, nothing would be to code. If the work here is otherwise fine, live with it. If, in the unlikely event you are really going to have to redo everything, you may as well buy a cheaper, unrenovated house.
Posted by: slopefarm at July 22, 2009 11:45 AM
If you need a loan you might have a very hard time getting one.
especially now.
Posted by: gs3 at July 22, 2009 11:51 AM
I would venture a guess that about 3% of electrical work done on residential in NYC is done with permits.
Posted by: Petebklyn at July 22, 2009 12:03 PM
Pet, I know for a fact that it is 4.375%. However, in Bed Stuy it is 0.011%. :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 22, 2009 1:16 PM
"The Insurance company discovers that a non-licensed, no permitted work has been done. That may give them grounds to dismiss the claim"
Could that be true for work done BEFORE a policy is written? Does anyone here know?
Posted by: Bob Marvin at July 22, 2009 1:43 PM
how would insurance company know when work was done. How would anyone know (except for ones that did it).
And almost all plumbing and elec is not up to code...because code keeps changing and you're not required to keep it up to code.
Posted by: Petebklyn at July 22, 2009 2:19 PM
I purchased a "renovated" house that was a flip. None of the work had permits filed. Neither of those issues factored into my getting a mortgage or insurance (but then that was pre-meltdown. It may be different now). I'm knocking on wood as I write this but, thus far, I've not had any problems (except the boiler is cheap and needs a little babysitting during the winter). It's not necessarily a recipe for disaster but you might want to pay a plumber and/or electrician to consult with you for an hour at the property if you're really serious about buying it and are that concerned. While this is slightly different, I brought an architect with me to look at several properties. It was infinitely helpful to have him there as a sounding board, esp when it came to structural/mechanical issues about which I have no clue at all.
Posted by: herkimermaid at July 22, 2009 2:27 PM
If the inspector told you the plumbing and electric were not done professionally, I'd factor that into the price.
The "permit" isn't as important as the quality of the work that was done, but it certainly reflects that the seller did the renovation on the cheap.
If it were me, I'd rather buy a total wreck and renovate the place perfectly to code than buy a shitty flip job.
Posted by: IronBalls at July 22, 2009 4:22 PM
The inspector is just covering his ass. The house is over 100 years old so there's always going to be something wrong. Ask him clearly what's wrong and fix after you close. Good luck!
Posted by: jack slade at July 22, 2009 8:19 PM
My wife and I recently moved to Forte Green and looking for a rental/investment property. We looked at a property on Ralph ave. Is this an area that will be positive in the long run?
Posted by: pete1 at July 24, 2009 7:45 PM
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