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July 8, 2009
Aluminum Siding Removal
My partner and I are considering purchasing a building which appears to be a brownstone (on a row of brownstones, has same exact roofing and roof detail as others, it appears that the siding was just slapped on top.) I am guessing the Brownstone facade needed some work, and it was cheaper to throw up some siding. How difficult and costly is it to remove aluminum siding? Before we move forward on this place, we'd like to know what people think. Of course, before we put an offer on the place we will consult with a contractor to determine actual cost/hourly rate, etc.
Comments
It's not the removal of the siding that will be costly ( maybe a few thousand dollars) but what you may need to do to what's underneath. You never know, maybe it'll be fine and they just decided 20 years ago that they wanted a new look!!! :(
If you need awhole brownstone facade redone it'll run you $20-45,000. Are the stone sills and lintels still intact??? What about the cornice?? Was that removed and the siding goes flush all the way to the top???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 8, 2009 12:57 PM
Dave's totally right. We had stamped asphalt siding on our house, which came off easily. The big question was the condition of the facade underneath, which in our case was better than expected. But it's impossible to know until it comes down (and no one will give you a real price to fix it until they can see the whole thing).
As a first step, can you get the seller to remove a few pieces of siding to see what lurks underneath? I'm sure you're not the only potential buyer who would like to know.
Hope you have your cornice. Just replacing that is very costly--$10k or more!
Posted by: tinarina at July 8, 2009 1:36 PM
There's no cost in removing the siding. As others have mentioned, that's the least of it. What condition is the brownstone on the adjacent houses? Have they all been stuccoed over? Or is the stone in good shape? -unusual in Brooklyn as the builders generally used the worst grade of material available, the stuff rejected for railroad embankments. On the other hand, it has been protected for years by the siding so maybe it will reappear in prety good condition -but I wouldn't bet on it.
Still, what can you do? You gotta fix it sooner or later. If you can't afford to make the necessary facade repairs you should rethink the idea of buying a building type that requires so much maintenance. A historic brownstone is a high-maintenance date. I chuckle when I read the posts from folks who are appalled at the high maintenance charges of luxury co-ops and think that buying a brownstone will be cheaper. If you annualize the cost that needs to go into the typical rundown Brooklyn brownstone, it would shock many. It shocks me, and I should be used to it by now.
Posted by: sam at July 8, 2009 1:50 PM
Yeah, sam. And when you buy in the ghetto it's even worse.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 8, 2009 1:55 PM
that's a shame you want to get rid of that historical detail :( jk hahah
aluminum siding is going to make a comeback in a few years!!! believe it!
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at July 8, 2009 2:00 PM
Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts. Sam, what would you say is the average (if there is one) typical maintenance charge per year for upkeep on a brownstone? What are some typical repairs that tend to happen in our neighborhood? If you have any resources or links to share to help us assess this type of cost, it would be very helpful.
Thanks!
Posted by: bklyn11238 at July 8, 2009 2:25 PM
Isn't it about $20,000 to restore a brownstone facade?
But with siding, it's more likely this house is a wood frame underneath, not brownstone, and not brick. Check PropertyShark or DOB web site, it should specify.
Ha ha ha Rob I'm completely down with the pale denim dropped waist prairie dresses making a comeback (recently referenced in the NYT as outre, but actually a fashion in Sweden) but not aluminum siding. Wait! No! Maybe the Future Perfect guy will make it a style. It's all over Bushwick -- quick, save your money, only $3,000 and an FHA loan will get you a whole house in Bushwick right now, all the aluminum siding you could ever want. There are only about four houses in the neighborhood that don't have it. I've checked.
Posted by: mopar at July 8, 2009 2:25 PM
I agree with mopar...very odd if this is brownstone underneath and not clapboard....which may be in nice shape.
You would have had to anchor studs in the brownstone to put up the siding...it doesn't make sense. Is your building totally flush on the facade with what I believe you said were brownstones to your right and left??? If not I'd definitely wager money that its a clapboard.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 8, 2009 2:30 PM
A lot depends on the size of the building when it comes to expenses/renovation.
5 story 25' wide b-stone could come in at more like $100k to re-facade.
Yearly expenses will depend on the heat, electric, re taxes, water bill, etc. All are dependent on the size of the property (and should be provided to you by the broker well before you make an offer)
Posted by: christopher at July 8, 2009 2:42 PM
The cost of restoring a brownstone facade, ie: chipping back all the stone and applying three layers of stucco cement, varies depending on the size and complexity of the job. It is anywhere beteen %20,000 to %60,000. or more for a mansion.
Apart from the facade, let me tell you, one roofleak that causes damage to plaster and parquet can set you back the equivalent of a years maintenance charges on a fancy co-op.
A busted pipe? six months. New windows? four years.
And you still have to cover all the other "maintenance" expenses such as taxes, insurance, water and sewer, heating fuel, gas, electric, and of course debt service. In the old days when you could pick up a decrepit house for $380,000 the money required to maintain the property was far more do-able for most of us.
Posted by: sam at July 8, 2009 2:42 PM
Fake siding over brownstone is not as common as over wood, but not unheard of. If the form of the building is the same as the others on either side, it probably matches in materials. You can probably find out for sure by pulling the tax photo at Municipal Archives (you might not even need to buy it, depending on the quality of the microfilm.
As others have said, removing the siding is not a problem (unless there is asbestos, which was common in asphalt siding but not found in aluminum or vinyl). The expense will be repairing the masonry underneath. Depending on how much detail is left and how much you want to restore, it could be a lot of $$. But even doing the basics of facade repointing, etc. will be necessary - the siding was probably put up as a way of cheaping out on that kind of maintenance, and the presence of the siding has probably only made the problem worse (its not waterproof - it usually traps water on the facade, hastening deterioration - a much bigger problem with wood buildings).
Posted by: WBer at July 8, 2009 3:20 PM
From the OP's description it would be highly unlikely to have a wood frame in a row of brownstones, so it's probably brick or brownstone underneath.
As for annual maintenance costs, utilities/taxes excluded, it's very hard to predict. You definitely must have a cash reserve, or access to cash, when something unplanned happens, like having to replace the boiler($8k)or the sewer line (12k+), etc.
Yes, a house is more work and can have more surprises than a coop or condo. But the privacy, flexibility and architectural details can be totally worth it IMO.
Posted by: tinarina at July 8, 2009 3:31 PM
Dont forget that NY taxes strongly favor 1-4 family buildings.
Posted by: slick at July 8, 2009 5:16 PM
Sam, that's why I plan to learn to plaster. Sounds like you have a very nice place. Agree with Tinarina on the costs and tradeoffs. Hey, at least the taxes are cheaper! And you can still get a decrepit townhouse for $380,000 in Bushwick or Bed Stuy.
Posted by: mopar at July 8, 2009 5:24 PM
Just for the hell of it check with the Museum of the City of NY or possibly the Library. There might be an old picture of the building that would give you all the answers. We were luck enough to find a bunch of pictures of a building in Union Square that gave us a complete renovation plan circa 1910.
Posted by: modsquad at July 8, 2009 5:47 PM
Between 1939 and 1941, and again in the mid-1980s, the city photographed every house and building in the five boroughs. You need the block and lot number of the house to look up the photo (at the Municipal Archives) or you can order a print (prices start at $30). See http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/taxphotos/home.shtml for more ino.
Posted by: 16Street at July 8, 2009 6:15 PM
If you do buy the place and decide to take down the aluminum siding I'd love to salvage it. I use it for radiant floor heating. Much better than sending it off the the scrap yard IMO. Gennaro 347 244 3016.
Posted by: gennaro at July 9, 2009 5:57 PM
Annual maintenance costs will be determined by the condition of the house when you buy it and how much work you plan to do immediately you gain possession. In our initial reno, we chose to focus on structural work and systems: roof, windows, plastering, beam/joist repairs, plumbing and electric. We've done the aesthetic work (kitchens, bathrooms, decorating, refinishing woodwork etc) over the course of almost 10 years. Yes, we've had a few unanticipated expenses but not as many as if we'd ignored the "bones" of the house at the get-go and gone straight for the glamor projects. Prudently, you should always have at least $25,000 liquid for a major emmergency repair but IMHO Sam is too pessimistic. Coop maintenance fees can easily run $1-2,000 a month. Most years, we spend about $5,000 on necessary repairs and upgrades (ie. not including optional projects like installing a laundry room or creating a workshop in the cellar etc). Hope this helps.
Posted by: grand army at July 9, 2009 8:47 PM
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