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June 13, 2009
Visit from Consumer Affairs
Hey all:
I called in a restoration and construction company (Basonas Construction) to do some minor masonry work. We had cut thru the side of the house to install venting for the new boiler, and to install a sump pump, and the holes were not neatly done, so I wanted them bricked up and sealed appropriately, and also there was a piece of bulging stucco I wanted fixed.
I've worked with Basonas before on some major seven figure projects, and I like them. And the owner likes me, so when I need something like this done, I call him.
When I bought the house early on, he did a parapet wall, sealed up one exterior door, and opened up and installed another, and for that I had paid him $7500.
This was a small job, a few manhours, a few bricks, a little stucco and cement, so the owner told me he'd just do me a favor. That doesn't mean I won't throw him a couple of exceptional bottles of wine, or some cash, or whatever, but normally he does large projects, not homeowner projects like this.
So here's the scene. I'm sitting on my stoop. My wife is gardening in the tree pit. Basonas' very well marked truck is in the driveway, and the worker is visible in the driveway doing work (Semi-detached house, the driveway goes all the way along the side of the house). .
A guy comes strolling down the block, says he's a homeowner up the block, and asks me do I mind if he goes to the worker and gets a card, since he needs some work done. I replied that he was welcome to do so, but I wouldn't count on the worker having a card, and that maybe he should just take the info off the truck.
Then I mentioned that Basonas was good, but not that cheap, he usually doesn't do these kinds of projects, he's doing me a favor, yada yada. Trying to help out a neighbor.
Then I go inside. A few minutes later my wife yells at me to come down, and there's the alleged homeowner along with another large Hispanic gentleman, and they pull out badges and say they’re from the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs. (Later I found out that they came into the back and started harassing the Hispanic worker, when my wife heard what was going on, she ordered them off the property and told the worker to keep working, all in Spanish, then she called me).
The big guy, who is barely civil, is telling me that Basonas appears not to have a homeowner contractor’s license. I explained that he doesn’t normally do small homeowner jobs and that in the past when I worked with him he had everything he needed in the way of insurance and workers comp etc. I was told he needed a license to work on 3 family and under houses. I reiterated that he was doing me a favor for free and that this was a friend of mine. I also was able to get Basonas’ owner on the phone and put him on with the inspectors. The original guy says that all they’re trying to do is protect the consumer, and if I’m not paying for the work, and I’m satisfied with the work, he’s OK with that.
The big guy says they have photos of the truck and that if they catch him around again doing so-called ‘favors’ for homeowners he’ll be up the creek. But in the end the work wasn’t stopped, no summons was issued, and nothing more happened.
I’m wondering if I should complain about the inspector who used false pretenses to gain access to my property. I’m also wondering if someone called them on me, like my good neighbors. I tend to think not, as a call like that would simply go to the DOB, and I have recent permits. Would a neighbor be sophisticated enuf to write down a contractor name, look up to see if they had a license, and call the right dept at 311? I’m thinking they were just driving around. Watch out!
Comments
IMO you certainly should complain to the Consumer Affairs commissioner and IG's office.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 13, 2009 4:33 PM
That's crazy. It seems to me that inspectors in Brooklyn are far more unethical than the ones that work in Manhattan.
A building manager I know told me that a few weeks ago a DOB inspector in Brooklyn responded to a complaint about work without a permit going on in one of his buildings in Park Slope. When the inspector arrived he saw a worker painting the first floor hallway and asked the worker if he had a permit. The worker is sort of a hothead, and he rudely told the inspector to screw off and that he didn't need a permit to paint.
As revenge, the inspector started knocking on random apartment doors looking for anybody who was home. He came across an old lady with a $250/month rent controlled apartment and proceeded to "tooth and nail" go through her apartment looking for violations. Needless to say, he came up with a big list and now the landlord has to spend a considerable amount of money to practically renovate the place.
I've never heard of anything like that happening in Manhattan, and I've been involved in real estate ownership/management for years.
Posted by: IronBalls at June 13, 2009 6:12 PM
The only contractors that are required by law to be licensed are plumbers and electricians. Any homeowner can GC work on his home and hire anyone to do the work. Weather the work requires a permit from the DOB is a different story. Not all does, as everyone likes to think.
Posted by: pig three at June 13, 2009 7:11 PM
may be a common tactic for them. They once came into my shop posing as customers, asked a bunch of questions, went outside to confer, and then returned to identify themselves. They ended up giving me 5 violations, all of which I was able to overturn because they were without merit. So, my impression is that their inspectors are sneaky (and arrogant), and uninformed about their own regulations!
Posted by: ParkSlopePS at June 13, 2009 7:11 PM
Any business doing a construction, repair, or remodeling project for over $200 is supposed to have a Home Improvement License, in NYC.
Posted by: ParkSlopePS at June 13, 2009 7:28 PM
According to who??? ParkslopePS. Once again, it is not required by law. Do your research. The Dept of consumer affairs issues the contractors licenses. The DOB suggests everyone use a licensed contractors to protect them against fraud. Licenses are required by law for regulated work... plumbing and electrical.
Posted by: pig three at June 13, 2009 7:36 PM
According to city law, pig three. Really. The business and trades regulated by DCA aren't volunteering! If you don't comply, it's illegal to operate.
The OP and contractor got off pretty easy--the story isn't really that believable, although I don't doubt it as I am a GC and do stuff gratis for good customers as well.
Posted by: bugleg at June 13, 2009 9:05 PM
Wrong. Show me the law. Go to the DOB. ASK. DCA has no authority over who you hire. I can have an artisan come do a home renovation of several thing that do not require a City permit and could easily run a 100k. No license required. I could have my friend change my windows on my single family. No permit required. No license required. Really. Trades are not required by law to be regulated by the DCA. Lemming.
Posted by: pig three at June 13, 2009 9:26 PM
pig three you are wrong...the dca thing is nothing new... you might as try to fight the wind
Posted by: eman1234 at June 13, 2009 11:33 PM
So these guys posed as potential customers to see if there was a problem that needed addressing, when they determined that there wasn't, they issued a warning and left? Doesn't sound so egregious to me. You see all the posts that are on here about people getting ripped off by unlicensed contractors, but when the city tries to do something about it, you get your knickers in a twist? They were sneaky? How else are they supposed to get the job done in this case? Do you think that there aren't plenty of contractors acting in a sneaky manner and claiming to be doing favors for friends to circumvent the law? How else is the city going to catch them?
Posted by: Bond at June 14, 2009 8:14 AM
eman1234,
What am I wrong about? Please be more specific.
Here is what the DCA's priorities are:
1. That businesses that have employees are paying into the workman's comp fund.
2. That those employees are paying child support if any is owed
3. Protecting the public from fraud
Period. In that order.
They do not regulate work, quality of work or have any say over who gets hired to do the work.
...but someone told me, so it must be true...
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 8:18 AM
pig three: go to DCA website . follow links to regulations. read their rules about home improvement licenses required in NYC. read about their enforcement authority if someone who is supposed have a home improvement license doesn't have it. see how that conforms to what you are saying. (and remember it refers to a business)
Posted by: ParkSlopePS at June 14, 2009 8:52 AM
Pig, I guess you think the IRS can't make you pay/file taxes too?
I kinda feel like a tool for providing documentation, but here goes.
From DCA's website:
A person or business must have a Home Improvement Contractor license if engaged in the construction, repair, remodeling or addition to any land or building used as a residence. This includes, but is not limited to, the construction, replacement or improvement of driveways, swimming pools, terraces, patios, landscaping, fences, porches, garages, basements and other improvements to structures or upon land that is adjacent to a home or apartment building.
Here is the relevant section of NYC administrative code:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dca/downloads/pdf/home_improvement_law_rules.pdf
The only exception is for homeowners performing improvements to their primary residence themselves. And even then, to pull a permit, you have to get a WC waiver from the State.
I guess all the folks in NYC hiring architects and contractors and pulling permits are rubes. Good luck with that.
Posted by: bugleg at June 14, 2009 9:02 AM
Interesting, bugleg.
I see it doesn't apply to work on 4+ family homes, like the inspector told me. It also doesn't apply to already-licensed pros like plumbers and electricians. I think that's what's confusing P3.
Posted by: denton at June 14, 2009 10:47 AM
"They were sneaky? How else are they supposed to get the job done in this case? "
Bond, I'm sorry, I think that the law should act in a lawful manner. Walk up to me, show your credentials, and ask what you want to ask. Don't lie about who you are or what you want. When the law acts like thugs, then they're no better than thugs. Just my opinion...
Posted by: denton at June 14, 2009 10:52 AM
Denton, I'm not sure about that provision, but I know as a HIC that the license is required to work on units within condos and coops--as 3 Pigs correctly states, DCA is more concerned with Consumer protection than anything else.
I don't think a HIC license is required to work on the common areas or exterior of a 4+ building.
Plumbers and electricians are licensed by DOB, and are exempted from needing a HIC license.
Posted by: bugleg at June 14, 2009 11:27 AM
Denton: I'm certainly familiar with unannounced DOB inspections...we've had two. The thing I can't follow from your post is how the inspector appeared so quickly.
If the homeowner called in a complaint, I cannot imagine such an instantaneous response. Even a call to 911 would not be answered so quickly. So was something else already in progress, either between your neighbor and DCA, or DCA cruising the neighborhood? Did I completely overlook something you wrote? BTW, when DOB shows up, appointment or not, they show up in uniform, announce their purpose, and then proceed to question/inspect. Concerning the second time, the inspector advised that if I had not been home or answered the door he would have left a calling card requesting a scheduled appointment.
Posted by: vinca at June 14, 2009 11:30 AM
Denton, actually they are well within their rights to act the way that they did. Common law right of inquiry as well as Supreme Court decisions are on their side. Enforcement agencies can use subterfuge. Their behaviour doesn't really seem to fall into thug territory to me, I guess we have different views on thug-like behaviour. But take it a step further. If I'm an unlicense contractor and someone from the Dept. of Buildings shows up, I'm going to swear up and down that I'm the homeowner and just doing minor repairs on my own house. You seem to be the type of person that can look out for yourself, but if the situation was an elderly person being taken advantage of, I'd be annoyed that DOB let it happen. Seems like one of the those cases where no matter what you do, not everyone is going to be happy. In your case, it seems to me no harm, no foul. I hear what you are saying though, when you are a legitimate person, it's annoying to be treated as if you aren't.
Posted by: Bond at June 14, 2009 11:55 AM
Let me say this - language is the key when navigating any bureaucracy. Look at the recent post to fighting a Dept of Sanitation summons. Or, since this post originated from Denton, look at his comment on the "open staircase" issue that keeps coming up on this form. Circumstances and key variables all play a role. Denton's open stairs were signed off as acceptable by an inspector because, although recognized by the DOB as a legal two family, his intended use and layout of his house is a one family. Stairs perfectly legal. Not legal if they were in a common hall used by a tenant. Denton's post here was about the DCA and how the person came to do the work for him. Not a business soliciting themselves to do work. If the DCA had a legal leg or any sort of authority over a home owner, they would not have to pretend to be someone looking for a contractor. Language is key. The inspector said "as long as your happy and not paying". Only half correct. The grey area here is the truck present with the business name on the side. In the course of doing work on one's house, as a home owner you can be the general contractor. You do not, by law, have to have a GC license. When obtaining a permit you do not need to submit a license. Again, with the exception of electrical and plumbing, you can hire anyone else to do all of the other work. There are insurance and liability issues involved, but that is another post. I'll address the IRS and architect comment shortly. Skipping ahead to the hiring of someone to build say a brick wall. Not once are you ever required to contact, consult or apply for anything from the DCA. Let's say my neighbor is a brick mason. I see him build a brick wall. I ask him to build my brick wall. We strike a deal. If the wall is a load bearing wall, an inspector from the DOB, repeat, DOB will inspect at the appropriate time. He could care less who built the wall as long as it complies with code. Now, you could hire someone without a license to GC your job for you. Here again, language is key. When dealing with the DOB, they are not the GC but the owners representative. Same insurance and liability issues apply. Now about the IRS. Comparing the IRS to the DCA is like comparing the Police with Traffic agents. But since is was brought up by bugleg, I will respond. Everyone has to pay taxes. Who prepares your tax return and how much you have to pay is a different story. Does a CPA, by law, have to prepare your return? No. If you use a CPA to prepare your taxes is there a guarantee that they will be done correctly and so you pay as few taxes as legally possible? No. Depending on language used, a specific deduction might be acceptable in some cases and not in others. So, the IRS had no relevance to this post. But it provided a good lead into the architect comment. Any person with reading comprehension skills and computer skill can design and prepare architectural drawings. So, in some cases, your average high school student. An engineer could consult or review the plans and provide the appropriate seal. Fee involved of course. So, if you think that an architect is required by law to do everything involved with home renovation, then yes you are a rube. For those who want to, by law, there is a choice. All the answers are at the DOB. Language is the key. Don't be afraid. Lastly, If you are looking to hire someone to do work for you, you are never required to consult the DCA. You may choose to, but it is a choice. And, someone licensed by the DCA does not guarantee that they will do quality work. There is no inspection or regulation of the work itself. They only provide a place to make a complaint. Their main concern is that business with employees are paying the appropriate amount to the workman comp insurance fund, that employees or owners of business are paying child support if owed, and protecting the consumer from fraud. In that order and that is it.
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 12:34 PM
Hey Vinca, I think, after some input from here and elsewhere, they were just cruising the nabe. Because, ironically, the guy doing the work is a large legit contractor, he had a large truck with his name all over it. That must of attracted their attn. Also ironically, a neighbor of mine is doing some illegal basement work. The contractor's van was close by but there were no markings on it. So there you go.
Bond, thx for comment. You seem to know a lot about the law, maybe the law is different for police than for other agencies (?) Certainly a cop can't knock on your door and do the same. Either he needs a warrant or he needs permission to enter your property unless he has reasonable expectation that a crime is in progress. He can't say he's your neighbor to get on the property and then pull out a badge.
Posted by: denton at June 14, 2009 12:34 PM
Denton,
I think the confusion here was what the DCA was trying to achieve. If you have anyone doing work for you other than electrical or plumbing, they are an "artist" and work alone. You were never at risk of anything. Doing some cosmetic brick work does not require a permit. Also, since your house's intended use is a one family, there is a world of work that "you" can perform without permits that would be required of a multi-family.
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 12:57 PM
Pig, you have alot of pieces of the puzzle but aren't assembling them quite right. The DCA regulates HIC licensees. To enter into a contract with someone for more than $200, you need to hold a HIC license.
That is the law. Has nothing to do with permits being required, or the DOB at all. You are of course right, with enough time and work one need not hire an expeditor, arch, or contractor. Just plumber and electrician.
And if one chooses to hire illegally (under the table), and there are no contracts, then I suppose one could argue they are not violating DCA's requirements. But one is violating other labor laws.
I'm starting to feel like the sucker here--but the fact is NYC law and almost every building I work in require that I hold a HIC license.
Every day in this fine city folks decline to comply with the law. Under the table contractors haul trash, and some of them get fined and their vehicle seized.
Homeowners arrange for 'artisans' to renovate under the impression no permits are required, and get hit with stop work orders that cost thousands to resolve.
While not _every_ renovation requires a permit and licensed HIC, many do. To pretend that these things are _never_ needed is cute, but not really a reality-based opinion.
And without the requirements of the HIC fulfilled (Workers Comp, Disability and Liability Insurance) a homeowner most certainly is at risk.
Posted by: bugleg at June 14, 2009 1:43 PM
bugleg,
You drank the coolaid and/or are one of the ingredients. A business contract only need willing parties to sign an agreement. It happens every day without DCA and is perfectly legal. Answer this question. Can someone obtain liability insurance for doing say sheetrock work and painting? The answer is yes. Do they need a license from the DCA to get that coverage? No. humm..? The DOB is the only one that matters when a home owner want to do work on their home. The DCA only provides information for someone who does not know where to begin when looking to hire someone to do work. I think there is more than one puzzle. Your puzzle just has big and few pieces. Some people prefer the more advanced models.
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 2:00 PM
in ny, an unlicensed contractor cannot enforce a contract against a consumer in a court of law.
Posted by: slick at June 14, 2009 2:28 PM
Denton,
I misread your initial post, I assumed that it was DOB,and only after going back and re-reading did I realize it was DCA. I agree with you that DCA coming to check is strange. That being said, I don't think the law, or circumstances change substantially. I've been the site super on multi-million dollar projects and talked my way out of many a SWO simply by not getting into a pissing match with someone who is defensive about their job to begin with. Should inspectors be more professional? Yeah, but lets be honest, most, not all, but a lot of them are in the jobs that they are in for a reason, and it's not because they are hard charging workaholics who know the trades inside and out. Giving them what they want,and moving on has worked well for me. Maybe I've been lucky, we've all heard the horror stories, but personally, the vast majority of inspectors that I've dealt with have been reasonable once I've treated them with the respect that they thought they deserved.
Posted by: Bond at June 14, 2009 2:33 PM
Slick,
I'm do not dispute what you specifically wrote. A contract is a contract is a contract. No matter what, where, who... they all rely heavily on "the language" used. Deep pockets make the most enforceable contract almost impossible to enforce.
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 3:18 PM
Bugleg's your posts are for the most part correct -- but the DoB does have a role in enforcing the licensing issue by confirming the HIC license at the time of issuing an alt1 or alt2 permit. And yes they're required, Pig Three's opinions notwithstanding.
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 14, 2009 3:36 PM
Smoky, thanks for the clarification. I have very very little to do w/ the DOB as the expeditor pulls permits/got me my tracking number. I suspected the DOB wouldn't issue w/out a HIC or GC license, but wasn't 100% sure and didn't want to muddy the waters.
Pig, I dunno what to tell you. There are all kinds of enterprises/services that cannot be offered in NYC without complying with regulations and having licenses. Taxis, street vendors, and about a million other things. I'm not sure why you are so reluctant to believe the DCA's webpage and city law, but whatever.
FWIW, I agree with you in large part--there is overkill, and it's burdensome. I think it is nuts I can haul debris from a job to a legal dump and pay to throw it away. In fact, I did that when I first started unaware that anyone would have an issue with it. But it's not legal in NYC. One can chose to adhere to or evade law. That's a personal choice, and I don't really judge folks either way. My business is built around compliance.
Posted by: bugleg at June 14, 2009 3:56 PM
Smokychimp,
You are an architect. I have respect for your posts in the past and probably will continue into the future. Please describe how a property owner can general contract work to his/her property without a GC license or HIC license. I'm sure we can agree that is legal? I'm not attempting to advise how to have work done illegally. I'm pointing out it is possible to do work to your property in a legal manner without using someone who is licensed by the DCA. I'm sure we could also agree the many types of work can be legally done to a single family home without permits from the DOB. All the information is there for anyone willing to take the time. Peace to all.
Posted by: pig three at June 14, 2009 6:25 PM
I did extensive renovation work on a place in Manhattan using a contractor who was also a friend of mine. He was not licensed by DCA, and said the only advantage (for him) of being licensed was the added protection he'd get if he ever got sued. As Slick said, an unlicensed contractor can't enforce a contract.
Posted by: Iris at June 15, 2009 9:56 AM
its funny as hell that i always refer to the HIC license as the hot dog vendors license... in the daily news today they reported a crackdown against fraudulent hot dog vendor licenses..lol..fits the bloomberg pattern of give tax breaks to guys like rattner, and hammer the little guyswho cant afford to defend themselves
Posted by: eman1234 at June 15, 2009 9:07 PM
My neighbor's contractor just got busted for a small unpermitted sidewalk repair. The contractor was fined $800 AND if he didn't present his valid HIC license right there and then they were going to ARREST HIM and COMPOUND HIS TRUCK.
There are several trades that are not required to have HIC licenses. Besides plumbers and electricians who have their own separate oversight... wall paper hangers, floor sanders and refinishers, painters, kitchen designers, window installers, are a few more.
One motivation for contractors to follow through and get their license... they have no standing in small claims court.
Posted by: IMBY at June 15, 2009 11:05 PM
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