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June 11, 2009
Open tread stairs and cable side
Im just wondering if anyone has this with kids? We are building a house and want to do this but Im not sure how safe it is. we have no kids yet but soon.
Comments
I did this in my own house when we had a baby on the way. He grew up in the house and knows no other type of stair - no problems. Any trouble we have is just standard running on the stairs stuff and the danger is just falling, not the rail or the open risers.
I suppose having older kids who know more conventional stairs might make this type of stair more fascinating and therefore more attractive to play - but who knows...
One thing to watch though is the 4 inch sphere rule - you need to make sure the gaps between any given set of vertical or horizontal components is no greater than 4 inches
Posted by: Brendan Coburn at June 12, 2009 7:27 AM
Yes, the 4 inch rule is what my contractor already mentioned to me. Did you happen to continue this cable rail system along a balcony or anything? That was my bigger concern. Along the balcont the kids could climb this like a latter. We are thinking to do the bable rail system on the stairs but along the balconies (which look down to the 1st floor) we were going to do a glass rail system (but use a acrylic product that looks like glass but will not shatter). I think that will still give the modern look yet we wont have to worry about the kids climbing on the cables and POSSIBLY falling.
Posted by: nybk01 at June 12, 2009 9:25 AM
Since you're designing from scratch, you could also incorporate screwholes into the posts that could hold pieces of acrylic to cover the cables while the kids are smaller, and then remove the pieces when they're older. This is essentially the same kit that's sold to childproof a regular open banister but it's more of a kludge with wooden posts that you don't want to screw into.
Posted by: NorthHeights at June 12, 2009 9:51 AM
Northheights, Thats a good point! Essentially we could do the cable system throughout the house and install the acryllic when we have kids. This is something im going to look into! Thanks for the great advice!
Posted by: nybk01 at June 12, 2009 10:00 AM
Architect here.
There's absolutely no need to install acrylic panels if you're already installing the cable system. It would provide no more safety for your kids. In fact, one could argue that acrylic is less safe because it can break into sharp shards.
There certainly is no need to do both. Just stick to the 4" rule with the cables and you and your family will be fine. Keep in mind that it is illegal to do the cables or even wooden balusters horizontally (as shown in the picture you posted). They must be installed vertically. Open treads must also adhere to the 4" rule. Any opening greater than 4" is considered illegal. This change came into effect July 1, 2008.
I hope this helps. Feel free to email if you have any other questions.
60designers@gmail.com
Posted by: 60designers at June 12, 2009 10:57 AM
Once consideration- The sphere rule usually applies to all the stair parts- you may run into code trouble with the open risers for that reason. Don't know, but you'll want to check that-
Posted by: Park Place at June 12, 2009 11:04 AM
This seems to me the type of modern stair only an architect or interior designer would love. I think anyone could break a leg, or worse, taking a header from one of those little tray-like treads.
Dogs cannot deal with these sorts of stairs at all.
They are not into open tread architectural statements.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at June 12, 2009 3:32 PM
I thought I recently saw an article about a change in NYC building code that would NOT allow you to build a staircase with open risers. It was one of the new rules that jumped out at me, as well as one saying any newly built apartments could not have an elevator open directly into a persons apartment - there had to be a vestibule of some kind. You might want to check that out.
Posted by: elpe at June 12, 2009 3:45 PM
minard, I beg to disagree. I have a similar open staircase and similar rail. You can see it in the reno blogs, first one down from the top.
I can assure you that our Sheltie runs up and down the stairs as he sees fit. Our Abyssinian cat flies up and down. This week we are hosting our daughter's Siamese, and it too manages to get up and down at an amazing rate of speed.
Maybe you think pets have design sense? Put a pork chop on the top step, watch what happens.
elpe, maybe you are right, but guess what, my PE and numerous inspectors signed off on it.
Posted by: denton at June 12, 2009 5:43 PM
When a kid climbs up and down these stairs, where do they hold on? Is the top rail an easy hold for a small toddler? To answer your question -- yes, I've seen homes full of expensive glass tables, art, and stairs like these and there are small kids living there who obviously learn how to maneuver them all and keep away from the dangerous and expensive and breakable stuff. But with kids come playdates. I assume you want your kids to have friends over to play, and try to imagine 4 or 5 year olds running up and down these stairs. You don't only have to worry about your own, you have to worry about the kids who visit you as well. I wouldn't want the hassle myself, but it can certainly be done.
Posted by: CGfan at June 12, 2009 8:22 PM
Get a grip, cgfan, 4 and 5 year old don't run up and down stairs willy-nilly, not at least in my house. It's called SUPERVISION. It's silly to worry about these things, kids are infinitely more adaptable than adults. A few falls and they'll learn ;).
Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 9:47 PM
Get a grip yourself, cmu. I already told nybk01 that his kids can learn to adapt. The point is, if you are happy to "supervise" your kids' friends every time they go up and down the stairs more power to you. I guess I'm just a lazy parent who doesn't want the bother. But I've never seen parents following around their 5 year olds on playdates to make sure they don't run down stairs.
Posted by: CGfan at June 12, 2009 10:39 PM
I'd say no.
"Mommmmmmy!!! Ahhhhh...!!!"
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 12, 2009 11:00 PM
Will someone explain the 4 inch rule to me? I'm confused about where the spacing has to be less than 4 inches. And can anyone point me to the rules about railings? I want to win a bet with my husband, who doesn't believe that a staircase in a residential home has to have a railing at all.
Posted by: saturdayrenogirl at June 12, 2009 11:35 PM
As the parent of two rambunctious little boys, including a 2 year old, I am biting my tongue. This is a design choice, and certainly one you can make, but if you are planning children soon, I think you should consider very carefully.
I have had a few heart-stopping moments with my kids as well as some accidents that bled like crazy. It is always awful, and you do the best you can. But why court the potential for a seriously awful fall? A toddler in socks, moving too quickly up these stairs, slipping and falling through, while knocking his head or worse on the way through...
I'll head you off at the pass. Calm down Lissa. Okay.
Posted by: Nokilissa at June 13, 2009 12:40 PM
CGfan, smaller children can hold any of the stainless steel cables instead of the top railing while going up and down. This is no different from a standard stair where small kids may grasp the balustrades rather than the rails as they climb the stair.
The danger to children that could come from this is if they decide to climb the cables. That is a danger, and it's why the architect 60designers has mentioned that it is apparently not to code. Which makes sense, but like I said mine was signed off on and there are quite a few of these around.
Saturday, the 4" rule is anywhere a kid could fit his head thru. In this case, the horizontal wires. In the case of a standard staircase, the vertical balustrades. Hubby is wrong, at least in NYC you need railings. What do I win?
Posted by: denton at June 13, 2009 12:59 PM
cgfan/minard/nokilissa- I don't see how this stair per se is more dangerous (or has less of a kid-height handrail) than a regular stair is... you can fall down a boring stair as easily as you can fall down a vaguely design-y stair.
Kids falling down a stair is a problem of kids and stairs, not kids and design-y stairs. A temporary gate is a solution to that.
In consideration of the 4" sphere (I agree with Denton- I saw it broken in the real world all the time, back when I was working as an architect and grumpily paying attention to such things), you should also make sure those cables don't have any flex; they might be <4" apart, but could deflect under pressure to more than 4". Shouldn't be a problem with a proper installation, but something to consider.
Posted by: bfarwell at June 13, 2009 5:28 PM
I don't have a beautiful open staircase like that one, but I have two children, a staircase that is dangerous for different reasons, and a spiral staircase that is open.
Our children have each had an accident on the spiral staircase -- only one and not serious. They manuever it most carefully now.
A standard rule in my house is NO PLAYING ON OR NEAR THE STAIRCASE. Visiting children are informed and mostly respect the rule. Disregarding the rule is a Capital Offense, resulting in undesirable adult attention and possible banishment to the bottom floor. No visiting child has ever had an accident on either staircase.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at June 13, 2009 8:00 PM
According to a strict reading of the building code open risers are not allowed not are horizontal railings.
People generally do what they want when it comes to single family residential units but responsibility would fall to the owner.
Posted by: oldrte10 at June 15, 2009 9:53 AM
How much would a stairway like that cost to have installed? I'd like to install something like that to open up a room. Obviously I could spend an unlimited amount of money on such a project, but what could I expect reasonable price range to be?
Posted by: mgraves at October 5, 2009 12:57 AM
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