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June 26, 2009
Enlarging a Backyard Window
I am trying to figure out whether I need to apply for a permit (DOB or Landmarks or both) for enlarging a window that faces my backyard in my single-family home. It's a landmarked building in a historic neighborhood in Clinton Hill. The window will be enlarged from 2 ft by 3 ft to 6 ft by 6 ft. Thoughts?
Comments
simple answer is yes. both. Landmarks will likely give you a certificate of no effect because it is on the rear of the building, but you still need to file and obtain it.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/working_with/perform_work.shtml
here's the guide. check the windows section:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/pubs/workguide.pdf
The DoB is going to want to know how you'll structurally support the area above the new enlarged opening also, which is why you need to file with them also.
Posted by: spanishfish at June 26, 2009 2:15 AM
if you can't see it from the street, and you get along with your neighbors, don't file anywhere.
Posted by: sam at June 26, 2009 10:34 AM
sam, I'm shocked, just shocked, to hear that you can make changes without filing!
Posted by: cmu at June 26, 2009 10:37 AM
filing at the DOB in Brooklyn used to be fairly painless. You would slip the guy a fifty when he made his inspection and badda-bing, it was done. Now, it's a freakin nightmare.
Avoid, avoid, avoid.
Posted by: sam at June 26, 2009 10:53 AM
In a landmarked district you must file all change to front and rear facades, the front "area"/yard as well as changes to the roof (e.g. if you install air-conditioning units for central air) before filing with the Dept of Buildings.
There is no "no effect" here. "No effect" would cover situations where you may be doing interior work only and there are to be no changes to the building exterior.
That's how it goes. You should be very careful when changing the dimensions of a window opening on these houses since the walls can be rather fragile. Cutting out the sill and lower brick for a door or taller window is fairly routine but widening an opening is more of an issue both for Landmarks and for your house structurally.
Thus spoke BGLady..
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 26, 2009 1:44 PM
I misspoke. What I meant to say is that LPC should not object, since it is the rear facade (if it is not viewable from any street). You are correct that it is not the same as a CNE.
Posted by: spanishfish at June 26, 2009 2:30 PM
Nothing could be simpler, from a construction point of view, than enlarging a window opening on the rear facade of a brownstone.
However if you are in a HD and the rear of your house is visible somehow from the sidewalk -fuhgeddaboudit! You gotta file at landmarks, and they will probably tell you "no!" after making you wait 6 to 12 months.
Buy a house with a back facade that is hidden from the street, it can save you a lot of trouble.
Posted by: sam at June 26, 2009 2:37 PM
If you are widening an opening in the brick it is not that simple. There are serious structural issues, do not take it lightly. If it is a one story wood frame extension it is a simple job and probably could be done before DOB could respond. By law you do need approval from both agencies, if you are lucky, have good neighbors and respect them while you do the work you might get away with the simple job. I would not touch brick demolition without a permit.
Posted by: edifice rex at June 26, 2009 3:18 PM
believe me edie rex, I was widening windows in brownstones when you were singing along with the telie-tubbies.
There are NO structural issues. The rear walls of b'stones are not load bearing, it is actually easier to widen an opening than to reset a lintel. Don't write about something you know nothing about.
Posted by: sam at June 26, 2009 7:43 PM
sam, no offense, but that's an idiotic post.
I'm sure you're a whiz at enlarging windows in masonry walls, but you know nothing about this situation, none of us do.
You don't know if the o.p. is thinking of enlarging the opening from 30" to 120"...you have no idea if the window in question is on the first floor or top floor of a 5 story building (big difference), whether the wall is 2 or 3 wythes of brick, or what the condition of the 100 + year old wall is.
So speaking so authoritatively about things is not smart.
I'm sure the owner of the building that collapsed in F. Greene earlier this week had a similar 'expertise' to yours about the crack in his building.
I'll be the first to admit that 99 out of 100 times, these things work out fine, the crack doesn't result in a collapse, the enlarged window doesn't end up undermining the stability of the brownstone...but you don't want to be unlucky number 100 because your grasp exceeded your reach.
Posted by: jcarch at June 26, 2009 9:16 PM
I know enough to write about this I have replaced many lintels. There are known knowns, known unknowns... I guess all us young whipper snappers piss you off. sammie you don't know the condition of the wall or the mortar. No structural issues? The lower wall is supporting the substantial load of the masonry above and maybe the neighbors. By your "reasoning" you can take out as much brick as you like? I know that sound brick is self supporting to a 45 degree angle with a vertical load but it has very little resistance to a lateral load. But it is not something to take lightly. I was urging caution to a novice. Chill
Posted by: edifice rex at June 26, 2009 9:23 PM
First of all, you are all providing very valuable insights and perspectives, so thank you.
The window is located on the back wall of the house facing the backyard on the first floor level -- it doesn't directly face the street but one can see it (rather clearly) from the street (there are gates nearby allowing someone to see if they craned their neck).
It sounds as though I can roll the dice and see if neighbors or passersby notice or I can do it the legal way and wait perhaps as long as a year (!?) and still not get permission. Is that a realistic time frame? How much does the Landmarks and DOB permitting process cost? Can the permits be filed concurrently? Do I need a registered architect and engineer to draft drawings?
Thank you for taking the time to write and help me with this potential home renovation project.
Posted by: matter445 at June 26, 2009 11:22 PM
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