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June 9, 2009
DOB Handicap Hell
We are in the midst of getting a permit for a renovation from the DOB. We are splitting a large bathroom into 2 smaller ones and keeping the current plumbing fixtures intact for one of the two new bathrooms. THe DOB is now telling us that we need to uproot our exisitng plumbing fixtures to comply with LL58/87, the Handicap Law.
I have been told numerous times that this is only the case if you're changing plumbing fixtures. Can anyone point me to a clause in the law or other resources that I can use to substantiate my claim. Or does anyone have more experience with this?
Comments
If you google NYC LL58/87 and "adaptable dwellings" you'll find plenty of information online. You might be able to apply for a waiver from the Mayor's Office for Persons with Disabilities. This issue is something your architect should be handling.
Posted by: vinca at June 9, 2009 10:45 AM
well your are not changing the fixtures in one bathroom but you are adding new fixtures to the new bathroom. your architect should know this. I am assuming you are submitting plans since the OB is asking for it.
Posted by: leotav at June 9, 2009 11:12 AM
The "Disabilities" office rarely if ever gives waivers.
You need to stand back, hire one of the professional expiditers who know their way around the Brooklyn DOB and let them pull the permits for you. The DOB can be a nightmare and they are clamping down on apartment renovations from what I hear.
Posted by: sam at June 9, 2009 11:16 AM
Once you have re-arranged the walls within a bathroom, or divided one bathroom into two, the fixtures are no longer grandfathered as "existing" in terms of ADA compliance. They have to be re-evaluated based on the new condition the proposed work creates. That's code and common sense.
The issue is not that the DoB wants you to rip out already existing fixtures. It's that their objection takes place in that form: reviewing the fixtures is DoB-language for preventing you from trying to take a bathroom and dividing it and making it less accessible for those with a handicap.
If you want the "clause in the law" that requires this, these standards are federal, not NYC, and I'd refer you to Department of Justice's required clearances and design standards. It's on their website as a pdf file.
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 9, 2009 11:36 AM
Here is the link to the DoJ's standards on accessibility:
http://www.ada.gov/stdspdf.htm
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 9, 2009 11:41 AM
Also, if this work is in an apartment house one of the bathrooms would probably end up over a dry space such as a bedroom. That is never a good idea.
Posted by: sam at June 9, 2009 11:53 AM
LL58 only applies for multiple dwelling buildings. If you live in a 1 or 2 family it does not apply. When you create a new bathroom (by creating one or moving fixtures) and you live in an multiple dwelling you need to do LL58-which btw is less stringent than ADA. Waivers are very rare, but I have heard of it being done. An expediter should be able to help.
Oh and, wet over dry is a joke that building engineers made up to get money out of coops. There are many waterproofing products out there that make this a non-issue.
Posted by: jelly donut at June 9, 2009 12:40 PM
Jelly Donut, LL58 is functionally equivalent to ADA. From LL58: "Even though ADA and FHA are not enforced by the Department of Buildings and do not exist in the current city building code, it has been the industry’s practice and professional responsibility to comply with ADA and FHA where applicable." In other words ADA and LL58 are interpreted by the DoB the same way, especially in regards to the issues above, fixture clearances.
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 9, 2009 1:03 PM
they are not the same, and in my experience they are not enforced the same way (ADA does apply to public buildings, and since it is federal law, everybody needs to comply). i am an architect and do about 20 apartment/house renovations a year. i deal with this very issue almost every day-- actually all morning today.
In any case, it doesn't matter which standard (or if ADA is the same as LL58) they are being held up to in relation to this thread. Only that if you live in a multiple dwelling building and make a new bathroom, you have to comply.
Posted by: jelly donut at June 9, 2009 1:19 PM
Hi, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.
I think, although I am not 100% sure, that the DOB may allow a non-compliant bathroom as long as there is another compliant bathroom in the apartment that can be reached by a person in a wheelchair.
Posted by: sososlo at June 9, 2009 1:23 PM
I'm a little puzzled about the logic of bathroom wheelchair accessability in a brownstone, most which have stairs no one using a wheelchair could ever comfortably negotiate.
Posted by: Stonergut at June 9, 2009 1:42 PM
The ADA is what it is. Often it makes no sense but one has to deal with it. The wet over dry issue may not be a problem to your architect but it will be an issue to your building's co-op or condo board. Most co-ops will not allow it and for good reason, not only are there potential leakage problems but also noise and plumbing problems. If your architect tells you did this not an issue, they are not being entirely honest.
Posted by: sam at June 9, 2009 1:55 PM
I agree with Jelly Donut, unless the apartment [dwelling unit] is located within a multiple dwelling you do not need to comply with LL58/87.
And to answer Stonergut, LL58/87 is for handicap persons, which doesn't necessarily mean they are in a wheelchair. They can have many other handicaps that would require special accommodations & accessibility.
Posted by: Fort Greene Myrtle Ave at June 9, 2009 2:01 PM
this is why wet over dry is not that big an issue: how tall are your thresholds in your bathroom? Probably not tall enough to keep the water in if your tub overflows. So then the water runs out of the bathroom and into the next room where it seeps into the floor. Unless of course, you waterproof your entire apartment. It is not nearly as big an issue as people make it out to be and buildings are generally ok with you doing it most of the time as long as you waterproof correctly-which you should do anyway right? Noise, maybe, plumbing, perhaps. deal-breaker, no.
Posted by: jelly donut at June 9, 2009 2:18 PM
there is no point in arguing w/ the dob...under bloomberg they have been instructed to generate fees..they are increasing compliance and fine issues...just roll over and grit your teeth
Posted by: eman1234 at June 9, 2009 7:27 PM
Original poster here....we don't have a "wet over dry" issue, that's not my problem. I live in a 60 unit co-op, so this law applies to me. We have an architect and an expeditor that was told by the DOB that we need to switch the sink and toilet. Can some expeditors be better than others? Can we resubmit this with another expeditor?
Posted by: katgut at June 10, 2009 7:43 AM
you have no choice...the dob has ruled that you need to comply
Posted by: eman1234 at June 10, 2009 5:40 PM
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