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June 15, 2009
Do we walk? Need estimates?
Hi All, I'm a newbie to the forum and as can tell from my user name, I'm anxious. My husband and I are considering buying a 3 story limestone/brownstone in Brooklyn. This is our first time buying and bascially first time dealing with all the issues of buying an old house or any house for that matter. We got the home inspection back and it was pretty grim. We are not sure if we want to walk away or not. The house has not been maintained at all so it needs tons of work. We are trying to figure out how much we should ask off the price to make this worthwhile. I was wondering if anyone has ballpark estimates for the stuff listed below. Also any names of a good contractor that does free estimates.
Thanks much,
Jen
Here are the issues:
- Lead water main, most likely cracked as water is coming into the basement. The fire hydrant on the opposite side of the street.
- leak in the bay window and water damage
- ancient boiler that needs to be replaced with gas
- electrical circa 1920's needs to be upgraded
- asbestos that was partically and not professionally removed
- no griter in the basement (it must have been removed at some point), need to install
- repointing the back side of the building
- redo browstone staircase, it is crumbling in parts
Comments
What is a "griter"?
Posted by: SenatorStreet at June 15, 2009 12:45 PM
Sorry meant grider. The support beams in the basement.
Posted by: anxious jen at June 15, 2009 12:49 PM
girder
Posted by: JimHill at June 15, 2009 12:50 PM
None of these are impossible tasks but it sounds like you will need all new mechanicals and some structural fixes before you even get to upgrades like kitchen, bathrooms, floors, plaster skimming, painting etc. The price of the house should to at least some degree already reflect the amount of work it needs. So don't assume you can just deduct the cost of the renovation off the ask. Check local comps and see what houses in move-in condition have sold for in this area in the last 6-9 months. Price notwithstanding, you and your husband need to decide whether you have the stomach for a major reno.
Posted by: grand army at June 15, 2009 1:12 PM
Those are some pretty pricey problems. If you mean the main water line coming into the house....like where you have to rip up the sidewalk to do it...that's expensive. A friend just did his. I forgot how much, but I recall not being able to lift my jaw off the ground.
The stoop is probably close to $10k ish.
Electric, at least $10k.
Boiler: $4-5k ish.
If you're not a DIY person, the rest would each be $5-10k apiece.
If you don't love the house or get a substantial discount, walk away. This is coming from the Queen of the fixer upper. If you do love the house, go for it!
Posted by: rh at June 15, 2009 1:13 PM
The problems identified are pretty standard. Rh's estimate is not unreasonalbe, though I think re-pointing will be more than $5-$10K. So you need a new stairwell, or are you just repairing broken stairs?
Posted by: Boerum Hill at June 15, 2009 2:10 PM
Hi Boerum Hill, by stairs, I actually meant the stoop. I'm from California, we don't have stoops there and I forget my vocab sometimes ;) The internal staircase is fine.
What do you think the repointing will cost?
rh, yes, i did mean the water line coming into the house. I would need to do this first since there is water coming into the basement. god knows for how long it has been this way. Ugh anxious!
Posted by: anxious jen at June 15, 2009 2:23 PM
is there a special reason you LOVE this house? if not, i would say to keep looking.
if what you are looking at is a standard 3 story limestone/brownstone, something similar with less problems should be available or come available soon.
Posted by: pmmtenement at June 15, 2009 2:29 PM
Sounds like the standard issues you will find in any brownstone/limestone not recently renovated. Probably 50k. You may be able to put off the pointing for a while, depending. Just make sure the price reflects the work needed. Don't panic.
Posted by: denton at June 15, 2009 2:36 PM
You're looking at some serious work! I'd say a new gas boiler is more in the $8k range these days. And electrical is tough--it will probably be at least $4k to bring new service into your house, if that's what you need, and then a lot more money to re-do the internal wiring; I'd say $3-5K per floor for the basics. But you don't need to do this all at once.
We paid $2500 for a new water main, but this was 8 years ago. A sewer main is much more expensive.
Posted by: tinarina at June 15, 2009 2:42 PM
Thanks all, I guess what makes this place special is partly that it is affordable. There aren't a lot of places out there in our price point in a neighborhood we would want to live in. If we want a house that is, and we do. It isn't in a great neighborhood, but it is changing fast. We want to get in before the market starts going up again. Obviously I don't have a crystal ball on that one.
Posted by: anxious jen at June 15, 2009 2:44 PM
Oh man, how much is a sewer main? we were thinking of doing it at the same time since we would be digging anyways.
Posted by: anxious jen at June 15, 2009 2:46 PM
We had some of the same issues when we bought our train wreck, er, I mean house. BTW, its awesome now but it was at least six months before it felt like we were winning.
We replaced the lead pipe going from the street to the house, it was not that expensive of a job. Main Man did ours (google it, he's brooklyn based) I don't think it was more than 3,000. They get all the permits and repair the sidewalk, the whole thing was about a day's work. Price depends on how far hydrant is from house.
We also did a new boiler. There are a bunch of vendor recommendations on this site we used, Victory Brothers and had a positive experience. I think all told we spent about 6,000 for an oil to gas conversion.
In terms of getting a quote from a contractor, you will find many GCs on this site that can give you a quote.. two we got estimates from are All Renovations, based in STaten Island, does a bunch of work in Brooklyn and Transcend Contracting. We didn't wind up using either so I can't speak to the quality of the work.
Its not un-doable, just take it one part at a time.
Good Luck.
Posted by: Brooklyn11218 at June 15, 2009 3:09 PM
If you made a verbal offer that was accepted, got the grim inspection report back, and still want to go forward, try to negotiate a discount for the cost repairing defects that are "new" information. You could tell when you saw the place the boiler was ancient, and saw the crumbling steps on the stoop, etc. and presumably the asking price & your offer took that in to account.
Focus on what the inspection tells you that you didn't already know and the broker / seller didn't disclose on their own & figure how much that's going to cost. You can discuss with your attorney negotiating to get repairs in to the contract or a price reduction. Usually the later is better because you want to be in control of the repairs.
Posted by: Bklnite at June 15, 2009 3:24 PM
Don't count on the market going up again for at least five years. Interest rates are going to shoot up and prices have just barely started going down. From someone who has done one major renovation (on a farm house upstate) and one partial (on a brownstone in bklyn) I would say walk away and find a place where you can put your money into getting the place into the final shape you want it. Otherwise you will put any money you have into simply making it livable and never have the money for the finishing touches, which becomes more frustrating the longer you live in a place...
Posted by: gkw at June 15, 2009 4:03 PM
Cost aside, don't discount the stress involved with a renovation. I still can't believe I willingly signed up for and then paid almost a couple hundred grand for it (and counting)! Ignorance is bliss. I'd be genuinely torn about ever doing a major reno again. Hopefully this'll be the one and only experience. Also, while it's impossible to gauge the extent of the work needed from a brief description of the house and its problems, I think some of the numbers quoted here are on the low side. You definitely want to put "worst case scenario" estimates together for what things will realistically cost.
Posted by: herkimermaid at June 15, 2009 4:32 PM
Jen--
Sounds like Bk11218 is talking about a water main, which of course is separate from the sewer line. I'd wait on the new sewer line unless you have reason to believe it's in bad shape; it's generally $10k or more to replace.
Posted by: tinarina at June 15, 2009 4:51 PM
Thanks all, this has been very helpful!
Posted by: anxious jen at June 15, 2009 5:05 PM
Maybe my friend did their sewer line, because it was definitely over $10k.
11218, 6 months? Count yourself lucky.
Posted by: rh at June 15, 2009 5:45 PM
Tinarine & RH, I think you are right, it was water main, not sewer line (so far those have been fine).
RH, we are still a work in progress but all of our major systems and conveniences are in place. It truly sucked not having a kitchen for 5 months.
Posted by: Brooklyn11218 at June 15, 2009 8:12 PM
I don't notice not having a kitchen since I don't cook. :)
What bothered me was not having a bathroom for 2 months. The porta potty came in really handy, but we couldn't sleep there with no shower.
4 years later (and 5 on our other house) and the renovation is still in progress.
Posted by: rh at June 16, 2009 7:32 AM
You might want to phone the gas company, as we are in the process of applying for a discounted home reno loan to add insulation, new windows, etc. through a non-profit that the gas co. put us in touch with. It's managed by one of those neighborhood housing services. It may depend which area this house is in, but the loan is under 5%. Just a thought.
Posted by: tinmouse10 at June 16, 2009 11:17 AM
Probably to renovate completely with the pointing and everything and depending on how DIY you are and there will definitely be other problems because it is an old building, like your plumbing will probably have to be upgraded too, and you may have roof issues also, it could cost you 80-100K. Are all your windows in need of replacing? Or just the one. Here are my rough estimates based on my current reno:
- Lead water main, most likely cracked as water is coming into the basement. The fire hydrant on the opposite side of the street. (don't know, but wild guess is anywhere between 5-15K depending on how much you have to rip up)
- leak in the bay window and water damage (I've been told window replacement can cost 600-1000 per window depending on how much wood you also need to replace around the window and how large it is)
- ancient boiler that needs to be replaced with gas (boiler only will run you about 4-5K, but if you also need a hot water heater it will be 7-9K.)
- electrical circa 1920's needs to be upgraded (our electrical is costing approximately 20K to redo the whole house - I got quotes as varied as 20-46K, so depending on the company you go with and the degree of rewiring you do, it'll be expensive. Not to mention if you run the wiring through the walls it will be exceedingly expensive to patch it all).
- asbestos that was partically and not professionally removed (depending on how much, it could run you 1000-5000)
- no griter in the basement (it must have been removed at some point), need to install (no idea)
- repointing the back side of the building (we just did this and it is costing us 3,000, plus another 3,000 to redo an entire section of the brick at the top that was totally crumbling unexpectedly after we redid the roof, plus 1,000 to paint it).
- redo browstone staircase, it is crumbling in parts (no idea, but will be expensive).
You will probably have to do other work too like cosmetic stuff, upgrading plumbing, maybe your roof. Unless you have a lot of spare cash around, or are getting such a good price that you can potentially take a home equity loan out right after you buy it, then you might want to pass....
Posted by: theklahy at June 16, 2009 3:26 PM
The main beam in the basement is missing? How is it possible the house is still standing? Are the floors and walls straight?
Other than that, this does not sound all that serious. Re the electrical, do you have 100 amp service? If so, you don't need to upgrade -- unless you're planning to put in fancy appliances.
What I've been told about electrical is figure $5,000 to put in a breaker box if you have fuses, and another $5,000 per floor for the points. Then you have to cover up the holes in the wall -- you could do it yourself if you're inclined. These are pretty high estimates. I've certainly heard of people who've redone their electrical for less.
Posted by: mopar at June 16, 2009 5:53 PM
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