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June 10, 2009
Cobble Hill or Carroll Gardens?
Where does Carroll Gardens start and Cobble Hill end? I have seen it a number of different ways and am still confused.
Comments
Degraw is the line.
Talk a walk down Henry St, almost every block has at least 1 "landmark district" map hanging from a lamp post. They lay out the streets of landmarked cobble Hill.
Cobble Hill is Atlantic to Degraw, Hicks to Court (the historic district). Carrroll Gardens is Degraw to Hamilton, Gowanus to Hicks.
Posted by: christopher at June 9, 2009 9:16 PM
Christopher is exactly correct.
Posted by: feral at June 10, 2009 9:44 AM
to hijack a bit, does anyone know of a site that has a map of all the brooklyn neighborhoods w/clear boundaries. B/c I'm also confused about boerum hill-fort greene-clinton hill....
Posted by: new2hood at June 10, 2009 9:50 AM
Is "exactly correct" redundant as in "grave danger?"
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 10, 2009 9:59 AM
The historic districts have clear boundaries but neighborhoods generally do not. So one man's map will differ from another. And one person's opinion will differ from another.
For example above the poster uses the historic district to define Cobble Hill neighborhood but not Carroll Gardens (CG historic district is very small). Other people may include more than historic of Cobble Hill for the neighborhood - such as going east to Smith or west to Columbia.
Other people prefer to mini-neighborhoodize everything and use Columbia district, CobHill north, etc, etc, etc.
And you'll see on Brownstoner how touchy when someone refers to west side of 4th avenue as Park Slope who prefers the moniker Gowanus (one that many others don't recognize).
As if living on other side of street somehow changes someone's orientation and neighborhood identification.
Just don't get to hung up on looking for definitive boundaries.
Posted by: Petebklyn at June 10, 2009 9:59 AM
why is this important?
Posted by: southbrooklyn at June 10, 2009 10:00 AM
http://www.brooklynnow.com/brooklynnow/bococa/index.html
Posted by: BH76 at June 10, 2009 10:01 AM
Dibs - Not sure of the "exactly correct" issue but obviously Petebklyn doesn't think either term applies so Christopher's answer is evidently inexactly correct.
Posted by: Arkady at June 10, 2009 10:03 AM
The landmark districts are actually important because they impact what you can do with your property if you own. The neighborhood boundaries only matter if you want to identify with a particular name. Like a person on Douglass near Smith probably says they live in Cobble Hill, but someone might actually bother to argue that they don't because they are not within the historic district boundaries.
The odd thing is that the North side of Degraw is in Cobble Hill but the south side is not. This actually make a huge difference when renovating, converting to condos, etc.
Posted by: Carol Gardens at June 10, 2009 10:09 AM
Don't trust the bococa guide. They have at least one street misspelled and haven't been around long enough to be a definitive guide.
Posted by: lifer at June 10, 2009 10:11 AM
I've always liked "Small Sown Brooklyn" as a good site for nfo on neighborhood boundaries - although it really only covers brownstone Brooklyn.
http://www.smalltownbrooklyn.com/smalltownbrooklyn/index.html
Posted by: bkre at June 10, 2009 10:15 AM
Though "neighborhoods" often extend past the boundaries indicated, here is a link to the historic district maps which are useful as they can affect land values and your ability to renovate:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/maps/maps_bklyn.shtml
You will see that the street signs change to brown in these areas. Often one side of a street is in a "historical district" and the other isn't... this happens at the borders.
Posted by: AbruzzoBodziak at June 10, 2009 10:18 AM
If we get resident only permit parking, I think we will become very familiar with our little dominion boundaries and where the powers that be want us to park and not park.
Posted by: sam at June 10, 2009 10:20 AM
I stated the historic district of Cobble Hill and not the Carrol Garden's one because the historic district of Cobble Hill encompasses the majority of Cobble Hill, whereas the historic district of Carrol Gardens is quite small (but I did include it when I described all of Carroll Gardens).
And generally, while things have changed a lot in the last few boom years, the areas between Hicks and Columbia were generally never considered a part of anything, but there are those who will argue that they are part of Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens...
Posted by: christopher at June 10, 2009 10:20 AM
come on... Everyone knows that the area west of Hicks is CoWaDi, the Columbia Waterfront District
Posted by: duckumu at June 10, 2009 10:29 AM
As someone who has been in the cross hairs of many a dispute over whether we live in Cobble Hill or not, here's what the Cobble Hill Blog had to say about the Cobble Hill boundaries.
I think the reason the four blocks bounded by Court, Degraw (nth Side), Smith & Warren are included is that they're are zoned for the public elementary school in Cobble Hill.
http://cobblehillblog.com/archives/114
Simon
Posted by: 99luftballons at June 10, 2009 10:29 AM
"Small Town Brooklyn"is fine, but it only covers brownstone Brooklyn west of Flatbush Avenue, specifically:
Boerum Hill
Brooklyn Heights
Carroll Gardens
Cobble Hill
Park Slope
Windsor Terrace
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 10, 2009 10:33 AM
It's all Redhook to me.
Posted by: RaginCajun at June 10, 2009 10:54 AM
South Brooklyn, as it were
Posted by: lifer at June 10, 2009 11:03 AM
I guess it depends how old you are. Basically, from Atlantic Avenue on down to Red Hook and part of Sunset Park was all South Brooklyn, since until the late 1890s the city of Brooklyn ended there.
For decades afterward many neighborhood residents continued to call it South Brooklyn/Red Hook, and some of the older residents still call it that. The names Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill were created later, partially for real estate "branding."
Today, common usage does divide Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill at Degraw Street.
Posted by: Brooklyn9999 at June 10, 2009 11:20 AM
As has been pointed out, there is little reason to focus on a boundary unless your focus is on being in PS 29 (which has explicit boundaries), wanting to live in/avoid a LPC district (also explicit boundaries) or else being able to walk relatively more quickly to the Borough Hall subways (in which case you want to be in Cobble Hill).
I was told by someone who grew up on Kane in the 1970's (and then later in Brooklyn Heights) that the mental boundary for him (an ethnic wasp) was Union -- once you crossed Union, the neighborhood went from something like 40-50% Italian to 80-100% Italian. (I wouldn't count on those numbers to be accurate, but more that it was his perception.)
That kind of jibes with the current zoning for PS 29, which goes to at least the north side of Union as far east as Court (but excludes everything north of Congress). (also, as 99 luftballons pointed out, there are 4 or 5 blocks east of Court also in PS 29). I don't know whether the zone was the same when my friend was growing up.
Posted by: Boerumresident at June 10, 2009 12:02 PM
Those of us who love living in Boerum Hill get really annoyed about the Boerum Hill/Cobble Hill dividing line. It has always been Court Street but when Smith street got restaurantized, Cobble Hillers started saying Cobble Hill started at Smith. No Way! Boerum Hill proudly claims Smith down to the Carroll Gardens border.
Posted by: coppermaven at June 10, 2009 12:22 PM
Depends on whether you're buying or selling.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 10, 2009 2:05 PM
I am not sure why you or anyone else would get 'really annoyed' about Smith/Court blocks designation.
And I never until very recent years ever heard any refer to those blocks as BoerumHill and mostly on Brownstoner - so not sure why you sale 'always'.
I have lived neighborhood since late 1970's.
Posted by: Petebklyn at June 10, 2009 2:05 PM
sorry about the typing - I meant say 'always'.
In end - really all of them the same 'neighborhood' anyway.
Posted by: Petebklyn at June 10, 2009 2:08 PM
its all BoCoCa anyway. same freaking neighborhood no real changes and real differences. unlike other neighborhoods.
Boerum Hill
Cobble Hill
Carroll Gardens
/runs
Posted by: armchairwarrior at June 10, 2009 2:32 PM
coppermaven, I disagree. You might like to claim Smith St for the value it would impart to your digs, but it doesn't jive with the way the neighborhoods flow. Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens are basically north-south neighbordhoods, follwing the Court St/Smith St commercial corridor. Boerum Hill is fundamentally an east-west neighborhood, following the Atlantic Ave/Schermerhorn St/Livingston St corridor.
At best, Smith St could be said to just barely touch the very edge of your neighborhood. But I really think it's fundamentally part of Cobble Hill.
(And, I've been there since the early 80s... it has nothing to do with restaurants.)
Posted by: sdrubbins at June 10, 2009 2:38 PM
Growing up and going to PS 29 the general thoughts back then was Cobble Hill went to Court. Boreum Hill started at Smith. The block in between was sort of nebulous and the dividing line between the two. Of course Smith Street was much different back then...
Things don't matter much these days, but I do remember going to school with kids who's parents wouldn't let them cross over Court St or go south of Sackett. There was a time when these neighborhoods were extremely insular and the boundaries really did matter. Not so much any more (although I do find myself falling into my provincial roots every now and then...)
Posted by: christopher at June 10, 2009 2:56 PM
You guys are quibbling about the border between Boerum Hill and Cobble Hill and in the meantime Park Slope is taking over everywhere!!!
Posted by: sam at June 10, 2009 2:58 PM
"I am not sure why you or anyone else would get 'really annoyed' about Smith/Court blocks designation.
And I never until very recent years ever heard any refer to those blocks as BoerumHill and mostly on Brownstoner - so not sure why you sale 'always'.
I have lived neighborhood since late 1970's.
Posted by: Petebklyn at June 10, 2009 2:05 PM"
When I moved to Boerum Hill in the mid-1980's, Smith St was empty storefronts, real estate offices and crack vials. I never heard any of the genteel folk in Cobble Hill claiming it then.
According to the Boerum Hill Association on their website, the borders are: Schermerhorn Street to Warren Street and Court Street to Fourth Avenue.
Posted by: coppermaven at June 10, 2009 3:51 PM
well -then there you have it. Whatever Boerum Hill Assoc. says it is - it is.
And tell me where the vacant storefronts between Atlantic and Warren were. Certainly there were no more then than now. And beside Hanten - which is still there - can anyone else come up with other real estate offices (not county than 10' wide tiny thing up near Atlantic) that existed on Smith? I doubt it.
I think memory is foggy. Can't say you never saw crack vials on Smith - but back then could find them about anywhere. It was a viable commercial street - just catering to a different demographic.
And remember we are talking north of Warren.
Posted by: Petebklyn at June 10, 2009 4:54 PM
To speak to Carol Gardens comment, I live on Douglass near Smith and I've always maintained that I live in Cobble Hill. It wasn't until a month or two ago that a Corcoran agent told me that they considered the street Boerum Hill. But before that border debates would often arise over whether Douglass or Degraw was the beginning of Carroll Gardens. Agreed that it depends on the person and the neighborhood they want to identify with...Personally, I just like that all three of these great neighborhoods are right outside my door!
Posted by: JBrklyn at June 10, 2009 4:58 PM
Thank you all for the postings. It seems all so clear now...
Posted by: basker45 at June 10, 2009 8:49 PM
Who cares ?
Posted by: bklyn14 at June 10, 2009 11:08 PM
If you've been here less than 20 years, you wouldn't get it, or care, no worries. It was obviously made a post cause it would spark heated debate among the long and medium timers.
Posted by: lifer at June 11, 2009 11:05 AM
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