Forum
« Bathroom Fixture Showroom? Eddie for Salvage »
June 23, 2009
329 Adelphi Visit
First, let me say that it was a pleasure meeting the realtor, Bill Radtke, a really nice guy. This house will need a total gut job. The basement ceiling needs to be removed to determine the issues with the undulating (!) first floor. That said, this house seems really solid. It was most likely built in the 1840s or somewhere therabouts and maintains its original clapboards under the shingles. The framing is solid (likely oak) 4X5, 24" on center and filled with brick, which is why, despite the floors, the house stands plumb. It needs a new roof, all new plumbing but does have circuit breakers and a fair amount of new BX. There is nothing salvageable AT ALL on the inside except the crown moldings, which are pictured and quite interesting and a nice stair rail. The stairs are built against a curved wall and will be a beautiful feature once that wrap around rail is restored. The fireplaces have been long ago sealed up and there is one rather plain marble mantle.
The basement is full height and legally occupiable. The top floor has decent ceiling height to make a large bedroom and perhaps add a small bath. About a third of that 24' X 35" floor is usable.
So, it's really about 3,100 sq. ft. in total usable space. Carve out a utilities room in the basement from that figure.
The door and window casings outside might be slavageable but in reality should be replaced along with the windows, which are not slavageable. The porch needs to be completely rebuilt but the columns are salvageable.
The house next door which someone linked in yesterday's HOTD thread has been completely restored and is a copy of this one wrt porch & casing details. The addition on the back, though it shares the same basement is a bit funky with the second floor level lower than the main house. It was originally detached.
It'll make a beautiful house but it will require far more than $200-300,000 in renovation, ptobably $500,000.
I last did a gut reno in PA in 2000 and easily spent $300,000 on a smaller project.
The last comment I made to Bill as we were leaving was that dealing with LPC on the exterior was going to be the least of your problems. But if someone with the passion can see this as the size house that's good for them, it'll be a great project and it'ss be worth more than $1.2 MM when done correctly.
Ed: The original House of the Day post can be viewed here.
Comments
The crown moldings pictured were most likely plaster but I've never seen any like them before. They were fully carved three dimensional pieces that "floated" within the corner of the crown with space behind them.
Does anyone know what this style is called???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 8:56 AM
Thanks Dibs for the report!
I suppose it's too much of a project for you?
Posted by: gemini10 at June 23, 2009 9:16 AM
I knew DIBS was all talk. If he really believed the optimistic nonsense he's been blathering about he'd hop on this money pit and turn it into a museum quality showpiece. The reality is, yould be throwing good money after bad in a declining market. Even DIBS is not THAT crazy - although when his own money is not on the line, he sure sounds it. Remember... The optimists thought they were seeing green shoots, but it was just a...
Dead Cat Bounce.
Posted by: DeadCatBounce at June 23, 2009 9:29 AM
Dead, the property is worth at least $1.2MM in this environment. It's well worth the effort financially to do this.
Believe it or not we just raised more money here at the mutant hedge fund and that requires more attention. Taking on this project is far more of a mental burden and time consuming issue than a financial one.
But you seem to know more about it than I do.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
It must've been hard to decide not to take it but it sounds as if it would be a really full time occupation for quite a while, never mind the costs. Thanks for the report!
Posted by: Arkady at June 23, 2009 9:40 AM
You're right, Arkady. There are also two peoperties in Bed Stuy that need to be gutted and can probably be had for $200-300,000. But I have my heart set on an early nineteenth century place. There will be more along the way.
This will take a good six months of work with the architect and the LPC and the DOB before you even gut it.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 9:47 AM
thanks for the feedback, sounds like an amazing project for the right person
Posted by: binnyG at June 23, 2009 9:53 AM
DIBS,
Ft. Greene has some of the most ornate and unique crown molding around, much more so than prime slope. In this house, it will be tricky to save it intact if everything else has to go. Vibration and removed support during demo and construction will surely take out some pieces, requiring delicate restortion work. We lost some moldings and medallions this way (1860s, and much less ornate), but managed to keep the moldings and medalion in the LR intact.
Posted by: slopefarm at June 23, 2009 10:00 AM
Agreed, slope. It will be difficult to keep it intact. No medallions. I'm of the belief that it will probably come down because the ceilings and walls need to come down and then it can be replaced with wood detail of a more Georgian style. I fear that the only original detail that will remain will be the staircase bannister and the curved wall....which will be nice.
After thinking about it, and because of the evidence of water damage in the front wall, I believe that the floor joists are probably sound and this is a warped floor due to water damage.
The floor was added in the late 1880s. It's that parquet style found in most brownstones. This polace would look great with wide plank walnut flooring, more to the period.
www.sylvanbrandt.com
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 10:04 AM
i think renovation costs are ridiculous. 500K to renovate a damn rinky dink brooklyn house? hells to the no, im sorry. how long will it take to renovate? i think renovators get paid waaaaay more than they should. much like live in maid's apparently.
just working in soho and seeing all the "renovations" that go on. really it's nothing but men standing outside all day cat calling women and drinking beer in paper bags. they do crap. they waste so much time.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 23, 2009 10:04 AM
DIBS -
you say you manage a hedge fund? How do you do that without a basic knowledge of arithmetic?
$900,000 to purchase, plus $500,000 to renovate, plus the opportunity cost on 1.4 M over a year (say $70,000) plus the cost of your time at minimumum wage (say $30,000), plus compensation for the risk and aggravation equals at minimum 1.5M for a house that by your inflated reckoning is worth 1.2M and you are underwater at least $300,000 dollars. Significant wealth destruction.
Do you work for Niederhoffer?
If you want to gamble recklessly on a RE comeback you can do so far more efficiently and with at least the ability to hedge by going long the URE.
This deal doesn't even deserve to be called a ...
Dead Cat Bounce
Posted by: DeadCatBounce at June 23, 2009 10:19 AM
*rob* - efficient contractor by day, ruthless mannie by night...
Posted by: the chicken at June 23, 2009 10:22 AM
Dead...Apparently ONLY YOU would pay $900,000 for this place. You really have no clue why someone would restore this house and what's involved anyway so why bother posting.
This is not a gamble, not a specultion. Tell me why the URE has underperformed the DOW RE Index when it's 200% leveraged. Keep your armchair analysis to yourself.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 10:26 AM
DIBS,
Ignore the fly on your shoulder, unless you have Obama-like reflexes. I agree that parquet seems incongruous with the house. Wide plank seems right. We managed to restore our 8"-10" pine planks and use it all, except for the garden-level, despite water damage. The water damage simply added color and variegation. We ended up with several grades of maple syrup. Of course, as we found various surprises and costs mounted, the idea of selling our floors crossed my miond mor than once, but I never considered seriously. I've seen reclaimed southern pine planks going for over $30/s.f.
When we started, we also had some buckling floors in an extension that had more recent flooring, and we had some joists compromised due to water damage but the two were unrelated. The water damaged joists had simply been eaten away and flaked down to a weight-bearing toothpick but I saw no evidence that water damage to a joist would cause a floor to buckle. The bucking is due to expansion as the flooring takes on teh water and the pieces press against eachother. SOmething has to give. It's like plate tectonics.
Good luck finding an antebellum house to restore. My area doesn't go quite that old. The Charette people tend to buy up anything decent from the 1860s although I don't know if they are still active in this climate. They did well for themselves, however. They do high-end faux farmhouse really well.
Posted by: slopefarm at June 23, 2009 10:34 AM
Actually, I do know what's involved.
What price would you pay. At $700,000 by your own math, you are losing money. Sure it's got potential, but the right number is so ridiculously far from ask that it's not worth dealing with. If you have a different analysis, go ahead and explain. Everything works at SOME price.
The URE has been underperforming because that is what it is supposed to do in a down market. I've made money on both sides of URE and the TBT. That's why you have to know the difference between a new bull market and a ...
-Dead Cat Bounce
Posted by: DeadCatBounce at June 23, 2009 10:41 AM
The URE has underperformed even on up legs. That was my point. Look at the chart. It couldn't be any easier to see if it hit you in the face.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 10:47 AM
I don't even know why I'm bothering, but I just can't let the Rob posting go. As someone who is at this very moment sitting in my dining room while a group of hardworking dudes renovate another part of my home, I can tell you that these guys work their a***s off.
Posted by: Rookie at June 23, 2009 10:47 AM
Rookie...rob probably sees the union guys on a big job. You're right, most small independent guys and their crew work their asses off.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 10:52 AM
quote:
I don't even know why I'm bothering, but I just can't let the Rob posting go. As someone who is at this very moment sitting in my dining room while a group of hardworking dudes renovate another part of my home, I can tell you that these guys work their a***s off.
dude that's cuz you are there hawking over them and it's in your own house. im talking about people working construction outside putting buildings up and stuff. relax, my comment wasnt meant to insult people who work hard at all which im sure your guys are doing. im talking about the guys i see on the street all the time. sheesh! why dont you crack open a heineken like the rest of them!
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 23, 2009 10:55 AM
agreed, rookie. without a character attack DCB found necessary, I actually don't get your math either. but, my opinion is that the numbers, both for renovation (that place is a mess) and post-reno sale (if done right), would be higher. nonetheless, the current asking price is nowhere near what would make this a worthwhile investment under either of our calculations. I guess you were hoping for a severely discounted price?
Posted by: amt230 at June 23, 2009 11:03 AM
whoops, that post made it seem like that was all for rookie.
it was two thoughts: (1) agreed, rookie, I don't know what construction workers cracking open a heineken (!) on the job rob is talking about. (2) the math Q was for DIBS.
Posted by: amt230 at June 23, 2009 11:07 AM
quote:
1) agreed, rookie, I don't know what construction workers cracking open a heineken (!) on the job rob is talking about.
come to Soho on any weekday. ask Dipster, he'll verify. i kid you not they all pack into the cheap places to eat around here and drink beer after beer after beer after beer in paper bags. then go out and are handling huge machinery. granted, the beer might actually help them coordinate better, who knows, but still. really all you see most of them do is stand around making nasty comments to every chick (yeah i said chick who cares) who walks by. i see it everyday, at every site in manhattan.
really, i was not talking about contractors and workers working at private residences and stuff.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 23, 2009 11:13 AM
First off all leverged ETF's have problems. We have made them off limits to our clients portfolios. I trade them for my pers. account but you really have to know what you are doing to make money on them. Second Dave just becouse The basement is full height why would you think it is legally occupiable?
Posted by: brickoven at June 23, 2009 11:16 AM
brickoven...i don't know if you could get a C of O change to make it a two family but you can certainly occupy it yourself. Basement was dry, high enough ceilings and had a bathroom. Whether or not you can advertise it as such when reselling, I don't know.
There is a back entrance to the basement through the yard. I don't think most owners of this property would be interested in turning it into a two family though. If they wanted to and could, all the better.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 11:20 AM
when I hear legally occupiable i think legal to rent it out.
Posted by: brickoven at June 23, 2009 11:26 AM
Dave if you like places like this you should check out New Orleans. You can place this style but the real deal for 100 sft or around there.
Posted by: brickoven at June 23, 2009 11:30 AM
Yes, the two, in theory, are the same. But you would still have to apply for a new C of O.
It's not more than 50% below grade, has windows, a ceiling over 7' and has two means of egress. I'm not sure what else is necessary for it to be made into a separate apartment.
I think some others might know..Iron Balls, vinca, Senator Street.
It'll certainly make for usable bedroom/family room/ game room/ etc.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 11:32 AM
I couldn't stand the weather, brickoven. Besides, there's that looming threat of the next 100 year flood event in 5-10 years!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 11:33 AM
I thought we were experience the 100 year flood event right now.
Posted by: amt230 at June 23, 2009 11:39 AM
Thanks for the update dibs. I was so curious to hear if the house details followed through after seeing the amazing crown molding. *sigh* Those were later, weren't they? I thought they looked more fancy than this house would have originally been built with. Maybe put in when they put in the parquet floors?
Posted by: bxgrl at June 23, 2009 11:40 AM
I agree, bxgrl. They look "Victorian" I've never seen them before where they were 3-D with the space behind them though. I think the best course of action and what would be more to the period of the house would be to remove them (they're going to fall anyway when the ceiling has to come down, no matter how careful you are) and replace them with wood/composition crow molding....not just a piece of 5" stuff from HD but something built out and down maybe with some dentil or egg and dart.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 23, 2009 11:45 AM
egg and dart looks too busy- I love beautiful, very wide curved moldings (ogee?). I've never seen 3-d moldings either- I hope whoever does the restoration salvages as much as possible. So where are you looking next? I have to say we have a couple of fabulous desperately needing reno's over by us in some truly spectacular homes.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 23, 2009 11:54 AM
Couldn't you make something like them with plaster of paris and a... I dunno, wax cast or something?
Posted by: Heather at June 23, 2009 11:55 AM
OK DIBS, you explain the math on this house to me, and I'll explain the URE to you.
Posted by: DeadCatBounce at June 23, 2009 12:16 PM
Thanks for the full report, DIBS. Carroll Gardens is full of moldings like this. I always assumed they're 1860s or 1870s. If I were at home, I could look it up in some books. What was that florid style of decorating popular in the 1840s or so? (Not that this is 1840s.) It came in after neo-classical.
Posted by: mopar at June 23, 2009 12:50 PM
Hey Dave. It's been nice to read what you've written about this place. From what I've learned about you through your own posts, it's clear you possess the DIY expertise, energy and willingness, as well as the broader conceptual talents to undertake such a project, if you wanted. From what you write today, renovation of this building would definitely require someone with time, vision and deep pockets. As to your basement description (and without knowing whether prohibited by zoning) if the windows are sufficient or could be made sufficient, it seems as if an owner could apply for revised CO in tandem with all other permits. It's a shame to think those beautiful moldings might be lost entirely in the course of a renovation. Maybe worth calling in someone like Hyde Park Mouldings to pull a cast and provide some historical background. I have the feeling you'd have a better chance of finding an early 19th C. place in deeper Brooklyn, though much as I personally love them, also have the sense those neighborhoods would not be your style. Apropos of not much, if you've never been to Governors Island, I think you'd enjoy it: http://www.govisland.com/Visit_the_Island/default.asp
Same for Open House NYC: http://www.ohny.org/weekend/listings.cfm
Posted by: vinca at June 23, 2009 1:19 PM
My house in Carroll Gardens has the same plaster moldings. They are beautiful, and fragile. I found someone who would fix them by doing what vinca describes -- pulling a cast and creating replacement footage. Costs a lot.
Posted by: PresidentStreeter at June 23, 2009 1:35 PM
FWIW, the porch pillars were replaced in the early to mid 80's - they are not original to the house. In the seventies, the porch support was cinder blocks and 2x4s as I recall.
Posted by: Stonergut at June 23, 2009 1:47 PM
Presidentstreeter- how old was the house. I'm curious because although the molding could be original from that period, seems odd in a house of this type whereas in a town or row house I wouldn't have been surprised. Especially since they upgraded to parquet floors in the 1880's - this style of fancy molding seems more in keeping with that.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 23, 2009 2:01 PM
Mopar's style question
Romanticism reigned then
Dave rejects pastels?
_______
Floors fitted with rugs
Parquet set down much later
Moulding not so rare
_______
Quirky little house
The sounds of the departed
Ancient water stain
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 23, 2009 2:37 PM
Dave, thanks for the nice job in describing the house. I imagine that that would be a really fun project too; I have always loved that house from the outside. One of the things you learn from doing a renovation is how so much of an old house can be recreated. For example, the lovely molding can be cast in a rubber mold, recreated and restored. I found a guy on Brownstone to fix pieces of my ceiling molding. It wasn't a big deal. No matter who does the work on the house, the owner needs to be extremely hands on with the project -- first, not to get financially soaked, but also to find the materials, and make all the aesthetic decisions and watch over the work to make sure everyone gets it and you need to do some good estimates beforehand to make sure you are paying the right price. but you need the time too. It is a second full time job.
Posted by: donatella at June 23, 2009 3:55 PM
Page 178 in Bricks & Brownstone there is a photo of this type of plaster decoration with air behind it. The house is described as Anglo Italianate.
I'd call this particular example Renaissance or Roccoco Italianate.
Italianate started in the 1840s. (And belongs to a time when houses were made by hand.)
This kind of florid decoration does seem incongrous on a wood sided house with a porch. But there it is.
Posted by: mopar at June 25, 2009 12:21 AM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.