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May 1, 2009
Water Collection
I have a plan for recapturing rainwater for watering the garden (I have a small patch of grass, potted plants and some planted borders). Thought I'd run it by you to see if anyone has done something similar...
Plan is to put a 54 gallon barrel on the fire escape. Attach a diverter to the downspout to the tank and collect rainwater. When the tank is full, water will be returned to the downspout through an overflow hose.
Water from the tank will be hosed into the garden. I don't think there will be enough water pressure to spray or sprinkle, so I'll probably have to use watering cans or a drip hose.
The collection area is a flat roof, slightly sloped and there is only one downspout. Roof area is around 640 square feet. My calculations indicate that 1/4 of rain fall will produce almost 1200 gallons of water on the roof!
NYC gets about 3-4 inches of precipitation per month.
A full 54 gallons of water weighs about 450 pounds. I would expect that the fire escape would bear this but am not sure.
Was looking at the water barrels found here:
http://www.sprucecreekrainsaver.com/
Sound feasible? Sensible?
Comments
Sounds like an awesome project -- I would like to install a similar system myself. Yours, at least so far, has a fatal flaw though: "I would expect that the fire escape would...."
I'm sure the fire escape would bear the weight, but the Fire Department may not. Leaving ANYTHING - especially something permanently mounted - on the fire escape is a big no no. Nobody wants to be dodging 54 gallon water barrels on the way out of a fire. Couldn't you keep it on the ground and elevate it slightly with a box or something?
Posted by: slopenick at May 1, 2009 10:57 AM
have used this downspout diverter before and it makes the install super easy.
http://www.gardeners.com/Downspout-Diverter/33-991,default,pd.html?SC=XNET8419
Posted by: 11216 at May 1, 2009 11:08 AM
450 lbs. is a LOT of weight to place on a fire escape, especially ones that are old, rusty, and attached to 100 year old masonry. If the metal should collapse and damage the building or injure people below, you'll be liable.
also, i think slopenick is right - fire escapes are supposed to be left clear at all times, so the fire department would likely fine you or the owner.
it's a huge risk to take, whether you are the owner or a renter. i wouldn't do it...
Posted by: appoggiatura at May 1, 2009 11:17 AM
Collecting the water sounds great, but I think you should put the barrel on the garden level, not on the fire escape.
Posted by: geekspice at May 1, 2009 12:17 PM
If you're willing to pay, I expect an ironworker would easily devise a platform and attach it to the wall.
Posted by: cmu at May 1, 2009 12:18 PM
What a great idea!
however steer clear of clogging up fire escapes
try to put the barrel on the ground and which I beleive from your illustration just means more feet of hose
good luck
Posted by: gemini10 at May 1, 2009 12:37 PM
Not only will you be dealing with the weight of rain barrel and collected water, you also have to contend with the force of water as it falls through leader. There's no question that I'd place the barrel on the ground. I'm curious what advantages you see to a suspended system? I understand that rainwater collection is different than rain gardens, but these links might interest you anyway: http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/design/2004sp_raingardens1.html
http://www.bbg.org/exp/water/tipsheet_native.pdf
http://www.waterresourcesgroup.org/?cat=2
Posted by: vinca at May 1, 2009 1:03 PM
this is a great idea, but whatever you do, just make sure that barrel has an enclosed lid on it..... otherwise, mosquito city, UGH!
Posted by: bowl of dicks at May 1, 2009 1:16 PM
As for water pressure - my husband elevated our rain barrels a couple of feet and even that gives us enough pressure for hose/sprinkle action. A hard spray might be pushing it, though.....
Posted by: mshook at May 1, 2009 1:36 PM
I looked into a rail barrel feed off the downspout once but could never source one that worked on a round pipe. The only diverters I found work with rectagular downspouts. I see from your photo that shows your downspout that you may encounter the same obstacle.
Posted by: wtman at May 1, 2009 1:41 PM
I have my roof extension's rain barrel elevated on a bench. When it's pretty full I am able to get tap pressure similar to that from the faucets inside. I've been using it as my sole source of water for about 15 large and 4 small containers. I haven't hit what I'd condider lush yet but last year things looked pretty good.
Posted by: bessie2 at May 1, 2009 2:11 PM
Thanks all for the advice.
Reason for the notion of locating the barrel on the fire escape was to increase water pressure to the hose. The back of the garden is elevated with 2 terraces. If I place the barrel on the ground, even on a 2' platform, it will be substantially lower than the upper terrace. The lower terrace, where the grass is, is only 18' so that might work.
Additionally I am already using the space under the fire escape for storage and also do not want to obstruct the view from the small window (the window on the fire escape is frosted for a bathroom).
@wtman: I think this will work with a rectangular downspout:
http://www.sprucecreekrainsaver.com/diverter.html#divertanchor
@11216: That's a great design as it removes the need for a overflow hose, but needs round downspout and only works with a barrel that I find unattractive.
Many thanks again to all.
Posted by: phripley at May 1, 2009 4:11 PM
I'd be a bit worried about mosquitos breeding in the standing water.
Posted by: slopefarm at May 1, 2009 5:05 PM
Slopefarm is right about mosquitos being an issue. You'll inevitably get them in the water but it may be a lot easier for them to get in then get out.
My suggestions:
1) DO NOT, I agree, put ANYTHING, especially THAT heavy on the fire escape. No way, Hose-y! (couldn't resist that one, sorry)...don't do it for all the reasons above from other commenters.
2) fill a watering can from your on-the-ground barrel (you could even have two side-by-side) and water by hand. It's fun plunking a watering can down into a huge vat of water in the heat of summer! That's not the only reason for hand watering.
I fully understand the reflex to have a hose with decent pressure and the bug that makes one want to design something that solves problems, but you'd really need a purpose built house to handle this kind of thing. One thing to remember, by using a hose, you're apt to use water a lot faster and knowing "from" these barrels (community garden), it is surprising how fast the water disappears when you get going. So, you'll probably be more water conscious without a hose.
I'm not sure what you're growing that needs so much water, but gardening in bit more in keeping with the natural environment (plants that can take our periodic 4-6 week summer droughts in the Northeast makes a lot of sense.
Native and non-native shrubs, trees and perennial vines (clematis, grapes) can often have deep root systems and do well through the dry spells. You can also create an edible, low maintenance gardenscape that needs little watering. Also composting helps, create rich soil and mulch a good deal and you may be able to cease watering for the most part.
Of course, if you're growing mesclun salad mixes, I can understand the need to water.
One thing you might think about is running the roof water partially into the yard either into underground wet zones (you lay heavy duty plastic down...like used for bog gardens) or directly into a soaker system.
Or, you could send all the roof water into a semi-dry well set in the garden, (there may be one already). There are a number of systems available, something that allows water to slowly seep in but holds onto quite a bit for a long time. You can use a hand/foot operated bilge pump from this underground cistern/dry well to hose the water to plants. I'm sure this sounds all much more expensive and involved than you're hoping for...
Happy Gardening this Summer!
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at May 1, 2009 7:41 PM
listen to what many have said here...do not do this on the fire escape.
1. it's illegal...if discovered by the city, you will get a substantial fine...if there's a fire, the occupants of the upper floors will have to jump for it (you'll be blocking access to the ladder). Assuming they don't break their necks, they will sue you, they will win, and then the city will give you that fine to top things off.
2. Structurally, there's a big difference between short and long duration loads. You do not want to putt a 500 lb point load on an aging fire escape.
3. The water pressure argument for raising the holding tank doesn't really hold water (ha). The pressure's coming from the water in the tank. Compared to that the water in the hose contributes almost nothing.
I love the idea...in fact I think this should be required/encouraged on a large scale...just do it smartly.
Posted by: jcarch at May 1, 2009 10:05 PM
For mosquitos they sell discs you put in the water barrels that kills the eggs; it's safe for plants, people, animals.
Posted by: traditionalmod at May 2, 2009 8:55 AM
I wouldn't worry about mosquitoes, just keep it covered. You want a closed system anyway, you don't want the water to evaporate.
I would definitely not put this on the fire escape.
Another way to do this without thinking in terms of pressure is to install drip irrigation or a modified soaker hose instead of asking for a spray. You can still install a valve, and even put it on a timer (maybe? I don't know if they sell this, I am imagining cobbling something together...), so that nothing gets too much water.
But that way your plants get watered automatically, and that's a total bonus.
Posted by: vanburenproud at May 2, 2009 2:05 PM
I don't know why you don't build a small level platform on the roof of the shed and put the barrel there. You just have to divert the drain pipe over to that area. Spread the weight out a bit if you're worried about it.
P.S. That much weight is not an issue on the fire escape. Any fire escape is capable of supporting more than that by a long shot. Furthermore a fire escape that is properly maintained will suffer no loss of strength no matter how old it is.
Also, no fines are levied for crap on fire escapes. A violation would be issued that the crap be removed "forthwith". Meaning in 24 hours.
Posted by: modsquad at May 2, 2009 7:24 PM
Don't put it on the fire escape. Waste of time. The city takes fire safety very seriously. You'll have to dismantle it eventually, either when the city finds out or when your insurance finds out. Or when someone is trying to escape a fire and it turns out that the fire escape can't take the weight of a person and a full tank and the whole thing collapses. Or when someone tries to go have a smoke on the fire escape, same scenario. I could go on and on with scenarios, but the point is, you'll be forced to take it down so it is a big waste of time.
In our garden, we have our tank on a ~3ft high platform, which is plenty of water pressure:
http://www.cenyc.org/openspace/rainwater/system/greene
We wanted to put ours higher (it *does* make a difference) but couldn't do it structurally on our budget. It turns out that a full tank (ours is obviously a lot bigger than yours would be) provides great water pressure.
Posted by: serpentor at May 3, 2009 4:54 PM
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