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May 3, 2009
Updating 1950s bathroom
I live in a co-op built in the early fifties. Two different plumbers have told me that both my shower and sink plumbing should be replaced because they are in such bad shape they can't be repaired very well. (In the shower, the diverter no longer works, and in the sink, the faucet drips and one handle leaks.)
So, like many people here, I am looking for a contractor--but one who is not going to try to convince me to rip out all my pink tile and install beige travertine. I just want to put in new plumbing, a new sink (old one's also badly worn), and patch tile as necessary (not just where the shower is fixed, but also a few small areas where the existing tile was patched at some point with the wrong color). Any recommendations of someone who is very sensitive to restoration? (BTW, I have some extra matching tile from when neighbors gut-renovated their bath.)
Final question: Is it true (as one plumber told me) that if I replace the shower plumbing, I must install a one-handle control rather than the two handles I now have?
Comments
You know...regardless of what you may think...the pink bathrooms of the 1950's era are in no way "valuable".....high end homes of that era had NO pink bathrooms...the use of natural materials..such as marble....slate.....and other types of stone were used...and are TIMELESS...in addition.... properly installed tile can last many decades....yours was probably glued straight onto structure-lite walls....as in my condo..not the right way...thinset...or a mud-bed would be the right installlation...and probably last a hundred years
Get rid of that pink tile!!!...
Posted by: Melissa809 at May 3, 2009 10:53 PM
Well, Melissa, the fact is, it's valuable to me. One of the reasons I bought the apartment was because of its original black-and-pink tile bath. I don't really care if it's valuable to anyone else. And I am pretty sure that this apartment was not a "high-end home" when it was built! :)
Posted by: renonoob at May 3, 2009 11:12 PM
the faucet question or tub shower. you can replace a faucet with another 2 similar to what you have
the other faucet sounds like you might need new washers.
double check all your info. it might be simper than you think.
Posted by: Ysabelle at May 3, 2009 11:35 PM
Ysabelle, the plumber the co-op uses has tried replacing washers and doing other things (not sure I could tell you what) to fix the various leaks in the faucets, and he is the one who first told me they have become so corroded and damaged that they need to be replaced. I had a second independent plumber take a look, and he told me the same thing. He did manage to fix the one leaky faucet so it doesn't spray directly out at me when it's turned on. But he said that what he did is a stopgap and won't last very long. And he said there was nothing he could do with the malfunctioning shower diverter.
I am fine with replacing the plumbing. I'd be happy to have new shower and lavatory hardware, plus I definitely want to replace the sink, and the kind of sink I want would require a different type of faucet and handles from what I have anyway. So I'm not questioning whether these things should be done. I am looking for a rec for a contractor to help me choose the right components and get good people to put it all together.
Posted by: renonoob at May 4, 2009 12:52 AM
If you do replace with a 1-handle, make sure you get the type with adjustable volume as well, unlike those horrible hotel types which have only hot-cold adjustment.
Posted by: cmu at May 4, 2009 8:51 AM
Thanks, cmu. I was pretty clueless about the various controls when I looked at those things online, so that's very helpful.
Posted by: renonoob at May 4, 2009 9:11 AM
Working on old Plumbing and old tiles can get tricky. Once you start removing some of the tiles, there's a possibility, not matter how careful you try to be, that they'll start coming off the wall on their own. We've had success with this kind of work and we have relationships with Contractor's that will attempt it as well, but there are no guarantees. We believe in preserving whatever is "important" to a client, not only what's valuable. As far as the shower body and only being allowed to install a single lever, there are other options. You can do a two or three handle shower as long as there is a pressure balancing unit connected to it to prevent scalding. They have remote units that can be installed somewhere else (closet, etc.) which can be adapted to any type of shower. Also, is there access from the back of the shower to do the replacement so that the tiles don't have to be broken? I know you don't want to open too much, but coming from a Plumber's point of view, we like to replace as much of the old Plumbing as possible. Once we touch a part of the system, we tend to be responsible (as sometimes blamed) for the functioning of everything else.
Posted by: Brooklyn Plumber at May 4, 2009 10:04 AM
Also, many 1-lever types have a built-in temp. control, which is useful if water pressure/temp varies when others open faucets or flush as you're showering. Otoh, there's kind of a pleasant annoyance as the temp changes if you don't have it...do you adjust the taps? will it revert just as you do so...but then, I'm easily amused at times.
ps: The worst setup is my bro-in-law's, where the two taps turn in opposite directions to turn off (European I think) and its SO easy to turn them both "off" (you think,) and the cold shuts off and the hot goes full. I thought of suing him (joke).
Posted by: cmu at May 4, 2009 10:43 AM
Stick to your guns on keeping the look of the bathroom. I personally like those old colored tile bathrooms, some of which are as early as the mid/late 1920s. Much better to have a nicely maintained/restored period-appropriate bath than than latest trend in my opinion. You may be able to find something very similar to the faucet you currently have if that's important to you. I'd look at Kohler and American Standard models. Talk to George Taylor Specialties--they repair antique and vintage plumbing and may have plumbers to recommend who have experience with sensitive restorations.
Posted by: BHS at May 4, 2009 4:10 PM
Thanks for the additional comments!
Brooklyn Plumber: "Also, is there access from the back of the shower to do the replacement so that the tiles don't have to be broken? I know you don't want to open too much, but coming from a Plumber's point of view, we like to replace as much of the old Plumbing as possible." I hadn't really considered that, but yes, I think the plumbing could be accessed by knocking a hole in my bedroom wall. Not too thrilled about that idea (I wonder how long it would need to be open?), but maybe that would be worth doing if it meant the tile damage could be minimized.
And thanks for the support, BHS. I will check out George Taylor. I also clearly need to find out more about pressure balancing and temperature control!
Posted by: renonoob at May 4, 2009 9:20 PM
I urge you to reconsider your desire to retain existing plumbing and tile. Unless there is unfettered access to rear of shower body, any repair will have to be from the front.
Tiles that look firm, over time conceal long term water damage to underlying substrates. Time and expense chasing the intended saving of money will in the medium run be unsatisfying - I speak of 3-5 years. You claim to prefer the pink tile - do it right and replace with pink tile.
Partial upgrade you describe is wishful thinking. Wanting it to be so does not, however, change reality. These surfaces have a lifetime, yours has already lived that long, and any disruption kicks off an irreversible failure of surfaces. No I don't want the job, I am telling you this to save you from learning the hard way.
Posted by: brucef at May 4, 2009 10:56 PM
Thanks, brucef. Just to be clear, I am *not* trying to retain the existing plumbing. I am more than happy to get new plumbing in the shower/tub and sink. Plus two plumbers have told me I need to. (Fortunately, the toilet is fine.)
I am open to replacing all the tile. My reasons for trying to keep the original tile were (in order of most to least importance) 1) I like the classic "old tile" look; 2) I thought the disruption/downtime (being unable to use the bathroom) would be shorter; 3) cost. If I can preserve a mid-century ceramic tile look and if the downtime for complete retiling isn't much different than it is for trying to do it the way I was imagining, then the only hurdle is cost. I would need to investigate the costs further to see if I could manage it. (I am just starting to think about this project, so I have not looked into the costs of tile or retiling at all, but I have been assuming it would add several thousand dollars to the job.)
Posted by: renonoob at May 4, 2009 11:43 PM
Wonderful! Such a good idea to keep a 1950s bathroom in a 1950s apartment. That's what belongs there.
I have three key resources for you:
*Alfano Plumbing in Queens. They will have the exact replacement parts you need -- not just the washers, but the worn-out stems. You need to bring in the whole assembly. They have weird hours. They are incredibly helpful and can tell you how to put it together, alternative workarounds, and if all else fails, they will re-machine the parts for you at a very reasonable price.
http://www.alfanoplumbingparts.com/
*Nick, very old and very experienced tile guy, knows how to put in all the old-style fancy work like coves and corners, will re-do your grout, very inexpensive. His wife answers the phone, she speaks only Italian. You might have to call several times. Highly recommended. 718-497-8857. He used to do all the tile in my coop in Queens, big building. He re-did the grout in my shower for $200.
*If you are having any trouble finding the exact shape and color of tile, send a sample to American Restoration Tile and they will reproduce it exactly. No minimums. Prices are very reasonable for replacement tile, although they wouldn't be your cheapest option for miles of new tile.
http://www.restorationtile.com/
Don't delay -- the drip will destroy your sink. Good luck!!!!!! I wish you well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: mopar at May 5, 2009 10:51 PM
Needless to say, your plan is entirely workable and is going to look better than a Home Depot patch and cost *much less* than ripping out the bathroom. It's entirely do-able, you just have to know how.
Posted by: mopar at May 5, 2009 10:52 PM
Try salvage places for an exact replacement sink.
Posted by: mopar at May 5, 2009 10:53 PM
I love those old bathrooms. In my last place, I found boxes of tiles in a closet that were from the original tiling--event he contrasting trim. So I was lucky that when I needed some work, I had the stuff to match. I left the rest behind when I moved. I'm sure the next owner chucked it all and redid the bathroom to be chic in the current manner. Anyway, this site is fun:
Posted by: Carol Gardens at May 6, 2009 9:41 AM
Here is a post about pink tile:
http://retrorenovation.com/2009/04/22/where-to-find-retro-vintage-pink-bathroom-til/
Posted by: Carol Gardens at May 6, 2009 10:34 AM
Lucky you, Carol! And I am a fan of Retro Renovation. :)
Posted by: renonoob at May 6, 2009 10:11 PM
BTW, mopar (just in case you come back), I meant to thank you for your suggestions, too.
I still feel like I might need a contractor...I am nervous about trying to coordinate the plumbing and tiling jobs myself....
Posted by: renonoob at May 8, 2009 12:21 AM
Have you read Bungalow Bathrooms by Jane Powell? Many photos of colored bathrooms, a section on what to do with a pink bathroom, and many tips for preserving, repairing, and matching.
Posted by: mopar at May 9, 2009 10:34 AM
This sounds like a very small job, not something requiring a contractor. The diverter can be reached from your bedroom, right?
1. Leaking sink. If your coop does handyman work, ask them to remove the sink assembly for you. (If there is no shutoff valve under the sink, ask them to cap it so you can still use the bath and shower.) Take the assembly into Alfano. Your coop handyman can reassemble the whole mess and put in the new washers and other parts.
2. Get a plumber to remove and install the diverter from your bedroom. Also, isn't your coop responsible for anything inside the walls? And maybe to patch the wall?
3. Get any replacement tile you need. (Restoration Tile needs about five weeks.) Get a tile guy to patch it. Oh -- you will need a loose tile to match. I presume you have these. (FYI, your coop staff can demo tile if required to get at something they are responsible to fix inside the wall -- but few tiles will survive and often the ones that do will have cement clinging to them. They aren't really reusable. Well, at least this is true of shower pan tiles. I'm not sure about wall tiles.) People patch tile all the time. I'm sure you've seen replacement tile around tub faucets.
Posted by: mopar at May 9, 2009 10:48 AM
Coop staff? Coop handyman? We just have a part-time super (who is not very handy).
The thing is, I actually *want* new plumbling in the shower and sink. The external fixtures I have--faucets and handles--do not look nice (due to wear, mismatched parts, etc.). I've looked online and seen things that are new that actually have a vintage look, and those look much nicer than my old messed-up fixtures. So I just think, well, I'd like to replace those, so why not? And I want a new sink. I guess the thing that makes me feel like I need a contractor is that I think I need advice about buying all these parts--putting them all together. One plumber I had in told me I have to be really careful when buying the new sink because the plumbing connections at the back might be too high up to match where the pipes come out of my wall. Really, he acted like this was a major deal! So I got worried that I might buy all these various components and they won't work together. And then there's this question of whether I must install a one-handle shower control that has a temperature valve in it. I am totally clueless about this stuff. But maybe I just need someone to advise me while I'm shopping, not a contractor. o_0
About the tile, you're right, I have seen replacement tile in tubs and showers (including mine). It's noticeable because...it doesn't quite match. It would be great if I could get some replacement tile that would match the original so exactly that even I wouldn't see the difference, but is that even possible? And if it is, would that be less expensive than retiling the whole bath with new tile? I have to admit, I am starting to like the idea of finally having all the tile in my bathroom matching! (I haven't even mentioned the floor--it is a pinkish and black spiral tile that is patched, in sections, with a slightly different shade of pinkish/black spiral tile and also one patch of white and black spiral tile. I'd like for all the tile on my floor to match, too.)
Maybe I could do this all myself, just working with a plumber and a tile person. But it seems like there has to be the kind of coordination that would be a breeze for people who do this stuff routinely, but would stymie me. For instance, it seems like the floor should be done before the sink goes in (because the base of the sink would rest on the floor). But it seems like the shower-wall tiling needs to be done after the shower hardware is put in. That's another thing I feel like I'd need help with--knowing who should come in when and scheduling the different workers.
Posted by: renonoob at May 9, 2009 4:41 PM
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