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May 19, 2009
"Expeditor" = "Pay to Play"?
Can someone please explain to me how DOB is NOT a pay to play exercise. I’m starting construction on a renovation of our new house in WT tomorrow and I’ve got a $2,000 bill due to the expeditor. So I’ve asked for information on what meetings they went to, with whom, when and for how long, and I get back this absurd response “JUST PAY THE INVOICE.”
Do projects get done if you don’t use an expeditor? It seems that DOB has no incentive to make its resources user friendly if it can generate fees solely by being inefficient. The whole experience seems awfully squishy from a legal / ethical standpoint. I might say it’s even corrupt.
A curious brooklynite
Comments
Expeditors get paid to get things done with DOB quickly and efficiently. You don't have to use them, but many people do, because dealing with the DOB yourself is so very painful and time consuming if you don't know what you're doing going in and get everything exactly right. You should have gotten a quote from the expeditor before you signed up for their services which explained exactly what you would be getting. If you got the results you asked for, then you really have no reason to be micromanaging their DOB interactions or badgering them for additional details. if you didn't get a quote first and just got socked with a bill, how did that happen?
Posted by: geekspice at May 19, 2009 3:32 PM
Welcome to NYC.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 19, 2009 3:37 PM
I only know Manhattan but if you agreed to pay them what they are asking for, then you should probably just pay them. In my experience they are very frustrating, seems like they are doing nothing for you most of the time, then the next thing you know everything is done with no warning whatsoever. And if everything is not done, they tell you exactly what you need to do to correct it and the process starts over (should not cost extra though). Your last statement tells me you are close to enlightenment.
Posted by: wilso26941 at May 19, 2009 3:42 PM
Next time hire and architect/engineer who has an inhouse expeditor.
It's sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier. . .
Posted by: IronBalls at May 19, 2009 3:57 PM
Where did you find the expeditor? I had a recent construction project and I used a company called the Equal Opportunity Home Council to expedite the process. They did not charge a fee, they provided reccomendations, etc on the project and it's my understanding that they get paid through the construction companies that are members of their organization...similar to the Better Business Bureau.
Posted by: Phil at May 19, 2009 4:04 PM
Actually filing at the DOB yourself is not difficult, I did it when we renovated our house, and found that everyone at the DOB was very helpful and patient walking me through the various necessary steps to get it done. That said, I wouldn't do it again. Our job was small and simple and was filed as a 'professional review' therefore not needing an appointment with the DOB examiner, and even so I had to take enough hours off work that the $2,000 I would have paid an expeditor does not seem unreasonable. Sure, sometimes all goes well and the expeditor makes easy money, other times the plan examiner requests change after change and they are there at the DOB day after day waiting in lines for appointments. I'm sure you can find expeditors who will work for an hourly rate, but most of the time its a fixed fee, and $2K is about what it costs
Posted by: 11216 at May 19, 2009 4:04 PM
I'm going to pay the invoice. That's not the issue. I just want to know what the money is used for.
I'm quite certain attorney fees aren't used to pay kickbacks to judges and juries. I'm quite certain my accountant doesn't payoff the IRS. But I don't know whether or not expeditors payoff (directly or indirectly) the DOB for project approvals.
Either way its an awfully expensive tax on people who play by the books and actually file projects in the first place.
Posted by: iddelz at May 19, 2009 4:07 PM
IB has it right. My understanding is, a lot of what you pay an expeditor for is to stand on line after line at DOB. Also, if DOB has an issue, they can jawbone a bit. We went IB's route and the portion of the fee that went to expediting was much less.
Posted by: slopefarm at May 19, 2009 4:09 PM
For one thing, they meet with plan examiners. They may revise plans. and...they may wait in line for hours and hours to pay your fees and file your paperwork. Asking for a breakdown is probably a pretty odd request.
Having needed to visit the DOB 6x in one week to resolve one issue, I'd say this is one job I'd never take on. people there are totally miserable and NOT looking to help you out. The secretaries for the Deputy Borough Comm'r are shining examples of non-compassion and non-usefulness.
Posted by: tiptoe at May 19, 2009 4:27 PM
Ever heard the story of Charles Steinmetz?
One day in the early years of electricity GE was having trouble with the output on several turbines. Thomas Edison was too busy to go himself so he sent his assistant Steinmetz. Mr. Steinmetz examined the turbines and within 10 minutes had marked several sections of the turbine that needed to be removed with a piece of chalk. The sections were removed and things went very smoothly until they received Edison's bill for $10,000. GE was unprepared to pay such a high sum for 10 minutes work and so they sent the bill back with a request for an itemized invoice. The second bill looked something like this:
Chalk: $0.50
Knowing where to put chalk: $9,999.50
Posted by: Bklyn Fire Alarm Guy at May 19, 2009 4:51 PM
Its not pay to play it's pay to wait. If all you pay is $2000 for a substantial renovation that's not bad. Very little of that money goes to the DOB except for the filing/permit fees. But it is the cost of a ridiculous bureaucracy. Just be glad you don't have to pay your architect for endless, pointless drawings for Landmarks. Or for a couple of pointless meeting at the Community Board and then two more hearings with the LPC.(excuse my personal rant,the wounds are still fresh) Where is your architect in this?
Posted by: edifice rex at May 19, 2009 5:29 PM
it is also payment for tapping the knowledge of someone who knows the incredibly baroque dob process...they know which plan examiners to avoid for your particular job, which clerk will gloss over missteps made by your architect, etc...they are worth every penny...i suggest that you go down to the dob your self and try to get try to get even the simplest task done in a day...your complaint is like some one complaining about why a plumber is so expensive...you are paying for knowledge, not mere sweat..
Posted by: eman1234 at May 19, 2009 6:02 PM
so it sounds like we're incentivizing a bad brcrcy but not really collusion. that makes me feel a wee bit better. like paying someone to move your car two days a week; if you don't see him move it, you might think he's just paying off the cop.
don't get me started on the architect ... CLUELESS to regulations. a frustrating lesson learned for anyone going through a renovation; hire an architect who knows regulations its at least as important if not much more important then design.
Posted by: iddelz at May 19, 2009 6:39 PM
If this is the beginning of your project and you are spending more than $100k or so you may want to get some outside guidance.If he is clueless to codes your relationship with your architect is likely to get worse as the contractor has to re do work that won't pass inspection. If his drawings are not clear and complete you may spend a whole lot more than expected on extras. Your feelings of being ripped off are minuscule to what they will be. If the project is not that big just figure it will cost twice what you expected and take twice as long. Practice yoga and relax. Pace yourself it may be a long race
Posted by: edifice rex at May 19, 2009 7:40 PM
first of all, you need a better architect..his ignorance will cost you thousands of dollars
Posted by: eman1234 at May 19, 2009 8:35 PM
it sounds like you have an architect on the cheap...nightmare...pay another architect the full service price (15 % of the job ) and get....full service instead of fool service
Posted by: eman1234 at May 19, 2009 9:02 PM
we are already over 15% of the total cost for design fees. his ignorance has already cost us money but we were advised by another architect that we are far enough along to just grin and bear it. as the relationship continues to deteriorate it is a decision i regret with every interaction. so who is the fool? the fool or the fool who hires him? that's all ... thanks everyone for teaching me what an expeditor does.
Posted by: iddelz at May 19, 2009 10:07 PM
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