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May 19, 2009
Deck Question - 30' Restriction
We're renovating a brownstone and putting in a parlor floor deck with stairs to the garden. Doing it all up and up and legal, but we're a little unsure of our architect's code familiarity and we'd love advice. We know we have to leave 30' of unobstructed yard behind the house, which leaves our deck at about 10' deep. What we're not clear on is whether a spiral stair, that has no storage space beneath it, can penetrate the 30' or not. As I said, insights would warrant tremendous gratitude..
Comments
As the code was explained to me the deck itself can only be 8' deep but the stairs may protrude into the yard with no effect on the dimensional constraints.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 19, 2009 7:39 AM
Have your architect hire an expeditor. You will run into obstacles with a 10' deck. Not necessarily insurmountable, but 8' is the no brainer depth. Everything else will create brain damage at DOB. DIBS is correct about stairs.
Posted by: No one at May 19, 2009 9:54 AM
I've found conflicting references to this. In a previous wood deck discussion from the 16th, I think, I posted some links to different DOB publications. One states 8 feet from rear facade, another states 8 feet into required rear yard. I spoke with my expediter and he said the latter, so that is what we're going with until told otherwise by an examiner. Daveinbedstuy is exactly correct in regards to the stairs. Without a doubt, they may protrude into the rear yard.
DOB TPPN #4/03 states:
An open porch, veranda, portico, terrace or deck shall be considered acceptable for projection into a required yard if the following is provided:
• There shall be no useable building or storage space underneath.
• Projection does not exceed eight feet beyond the face of the building, except that steps leading from a porch or deck may be located beyond this unit.
Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP
Urban Pioneering Architecture
Posted by: JimHill at May 19, 2009 10:01 AM
You'll notice required rear yard is not capitalized, but alas it is a defined term at DOB. Hire professional help if the extra space is worth it to you. My understanding is that you can go deeper than 8' if you don't project into the 30' required yard.
Posted by: No one at May 19, 2009 10:11 AM
"...you can go deeper than 8' if you don't project into the 30' required yard." is exactly correct.
Posted by: JimHill at May 19, 2009 11:03 AM
So, if I am understanding this correctly: If my rear yard is 30' (the required 30') I can build an 8' deck (8' feet into the required 30' rear yard.
However if my rear yard is 40', I can build a 10' deck and I am not allowed to build into the required rear yard at all since my yard exceeds the required 30'
This does not make sense, because therefore if my rear yard is 32' - using this logic, I would only be able to build a 2' deck.
Posted by: SenatorStreet at May 19, 2009 11:32 AM
No, you've conflated some points.
Question I have is: what if yard is less than 30 feet to begin with - say, 25 feet. Can I build an 8 foot deck then? Or, following SenatorStreet, am I restricted to 30-8=22 feet from the back yard line, and thus my deck can only be 3 feet wide?
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 19, 2009 11:40 AM
My deck is fourteen feet deep. I'm glad I built it before reading on this blog that one can only build an 8 foot deck...or how they shold be made of iron so as not to catch or spread fire.
All that talk may have discouraged me.
Posted by: sam at May 19, 2009 12:00 PM
My understanding is that it can be as big as you want as long as you keep 22' of your 30' rear yard clear.
So, yes, putnam, 3 feet would be your deck.
Posted by: JimHill at May 19, 2009 12:01 PM
My understanding is that it can be as big as you want as long as you keep 22' of your 30' rear yard clear.
So, yes, putnam, 3 feet would be your deck.
Posted by: JimHill at May 19, 2009 12:01 PM
OP here, basking in the glory of being promoted to the main page. Thanks for the input, but I'm still confused about a couple of things. First off, our back lot is approx. 40', which to my understanding means we can go 10' off the house, no questions asked, leaving a 30' yard. But can stairs off a deck that's using this rule project into the yard, as they can with an 8' deck?
And also, what does "no usable storage or building space mean?" If it's just open space, does that count as usable storage space? We certainly plan on using it as such... Many thanks to all!
Posted by: jb312 at May 19, 2009 1:15 PM
you can also request a variance from the BSA.....lots of paper work involved in that one...
Posted by: smeyer418 at May 19, 2009 1:28 PM
you know there is such a thing as excessive filing at the DOB. I don't know anyone, yours truly included, who has filed at Buildings for permits for a rear deck. It may be different in a multiple dwelling or if you are doing a lot of other work, but for just an open rear deck, to barbecue on, I don't think one needs too much bureaucratic involvement. Actually, if you went to the DOB for approval for a gas barbecue they would turn you down because you are not supposed to have gas canisters in the five boroughs.
To live succesfully in Brooklyn you gotta know when to paddle and when to coast.
Posted by: sam at May 19, 2009 2:02 PM
You are allowed to have propane canisters in NY. The law prohibits them being filled inside NY City, so they transport full ones from outside the city and exchange them. That is ok(Home Depot and Loewe's does it that way at least). You are just not supposed to store them inside your house. But I don't understand what a filled canister has to do with a outside gas line....anyway
Posted by: smeyer418 at May 19, 2009 2:43 PM
From my personal experience -
You may not "need" to file with DOB but if you try to do significant other work, refinance, sell, or anything else that requires an inspection, survey, etc. and the deck is not known to DOB, you may have to try to legalize after the fact.
We coverted our one family w/o any C of O to a legal two family with a C of O and only because a prior survey showed the deck, we were grandfathered in and allowed to keep what would have been an otherwise illegal deck. We came very close to having to demolish but for the old survey.
Also, on propane, you can possess a canister, but you cant have it filled in New York City. The problem with using it on your backyard deck is its illegal to carry them through your house to get them there. We bring a crane in every few weeks to carry them over the house to the back yard. (just kidding on that last part)
Posted by: very bored at work at May 19, 2009 4:08 PM
a lot of people on my block have outstanding violations causes by an extension dispute and then a neighbor calling DOB on everyone in the vicinity with an extension.
I don't believe its illegal to carry the canister through the house...its only illegal to store it in the house. BTW besides a crane you can have it helicoptered in. There is a service that does that its 18003253535.
Posted by: smeyer418 at May 19, 2009 4:21 PM
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/safety/barbeque.shtml
them rules.....
Posted by: smeyer418 at May 19, 2009 4:25 PM
I don't know, are you guys all a bunch of lawyers? You plan things with the idea that at some point you will need to change the c of o of your house? Well, I'm just a layman, and the less I go to the DOB the happier I am and the longer life I will have. I like the idea that you cannot carry a filled gas canister through your house. There's a dilema! you also can't carry them in your car if you use any of the local bridges or tunnels. Barbecuing is an OUTLAW activity in our fair city.
meanwhile from my roof I notice that at a nearby rental tenement the residents go up and light hibachi right on the roofing membrane. There's a real dilema, and I'm sure it's perfectly legal.
Posted by: sam at May 19, 2009 5:15 PM
sam, I respectfully pass on the torch for "disclosures beyond the call of duty (or the DOB)" to you.
Posted by: cmu at May 19, 2009 8:14 PM
what I love are the youngsters who want to do things "legally" so they will file even minor jobs with the DOB, not knowing that next to selling blow on the street, getting a permit out of the brooklyn DOB is one of the most sordid and illicit exercises one can engage in.
Posted by: sam at May 19, 2009 8:41 PM
Good code analysis re decks and rear yards. I would like to add that I have heard (but not confirmed) that sqft over 8Ft projection counts against FAR. Is this so Jimhill?
As to canisters on rear decks, connect grill to gas line and get converter kit for grill.
Posted by: chas at May 19, 2009 10:00 PM
Chas,
That's a good question. I haven't run into any discussion of FAR pertaining to the depth of a deck, but I haven't been looking for it either. I'd have to check on that, and quite frankly, that's a bit too much time for me to put into an online discussion right now. We've been picking up a number of projects lately and I need to get to work on them.
If someone else has the answer to this question, I'd be happy to hear it.
Posted by: JimHill at May 20, 2009 9:53 AM
Sam, a lot of this is a function of the neighbors. Every single thing I wind up tying I have to delete because it comes out sounding mean...
...just suffice to say that I am thankful to be living on a block where my neighbors care about my renovation but aren't vindictive, and have been through it themselves, and don't exactly have $$ to burn.
Posted by: vanburenproud at May 21, 2009 7:30 AM
I had a meeting with my expediter today and questioned the FAR issue. According to him, it does not count for FAR if the deck is more than 50% unenclosed.
Posted by: JimHill at May 21, 2009 12:29 PM
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