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April 15, 2009
Question about Contractor
I'm having some work done in my apartment. I got several bids and ended up going with the guy who was the nicest (and most expensive) after he agreed to match the price of the other two. The job has now gone on for triple the amount of time he originally estimated and he had to fire the first guy who was working on it because he was too slow. He offered to do many additional things for us in the beginning and consistently overpromised. He has thrown in a few things for us without charging, but now he's complaining that it's taken too long and he's had to spend too much money on materials and wants more money. He keeps complaining about how little he's making on the job. I had other offers which as good and much less expensive and would have gone with them if I had known this was going to happen. The job has cost double what we budgeted, taken way too long, and I'm not inclined to give him anymore money. He has done a good job so far though. Is this par for the course? Can I legitimately refuse to give him more money at this point?
Comments
I'm a little confused... first you say the most expensive guy matched the lower bids then later you say you had other even lower bids.
I guess this is what happens when homeowners play off one contractor against another, and also what happens when contractors desperate for work accept a job and try and figure out how to make money later.
Do you have a signed contract with a specific scope of work? If you do he should be obligated to finish the job, but that doesn't mean he will.
If it were me, based on the limited info, and also based on the fact that he is doing a good job, I might do a sit-down and find out specifically how much money he is looking for that would make him happy. If that amount was reasonable, I might agree to it but not pay it unless he also agreed to certain time-specific goals, and then I would pay him at the end of the job provided he met the quality and timeliness goals that were agreed to.
But not enuf info to say for sure...
PS: Everything always takes longer and costs more :-)
Posted by: denton at April 15, 2009 4:26 PM
Hi, sorry, you never know who reads these things so I was purposely vague. Just so you know, I did not play any contractor off another. I had 3 legitimate bids but my husband liked this particular contractor the best so we were open and upfront with him. We told him we'd like to go with him but price is an issue and if he can't match the other's price we would go with someone else. there was a large discrepancy in the prices and I was fully prepared to go with someone else. I guess he was hurting for business so he took the job.
We do have a contract but it's pretty vague. We've added some stuff outside the contract and agreed to prices for those things. Now he wants more. The problem is in the beginning he would find all kinds of things around our apartment that were either broken or not done right and he would offer to fix them. He never said he would charge for them and I probably wouldn't have agreed to let him do them if I knew he was charging. For instance, he's building a closet and he suggested that we really should put in 2 closets. He offered to do it at no extra charge. Now he's complaining and wants us to pay for the materials he used to build both closets (materials are definitely not our responsibility in the contract).
He's almost finished so even if he walks now we could probably finish up the rest ourselves. I don't want to be unreasonable, but I could have (and ultimately should have) gone with one of the lower estimates in the beginning.
Posted by: Brooklynitetobe at April 15, 2009 4:43 PM
It depends on why the job is over budget and over time. Is it because you added work to the scope and/or unexpected things came up that had to be repaired? If so, its reasonable and not the contractors fault.
If its over time and budget because your contractor is just asking for more for essentially the same job, that is unacceptable. Sit down with him and explain you have a budget and he has a job to do - its got to get done at the agreed price.
Whether or not he makes a lot of money on the job shouldn't even be discussed. That is his job to figure out. Its not his problem where you find the money to pay him either.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at April 15, 2009 4:44 PM
There's nothing wrong with negotiating the price of job, it's the smart and correct thing to do. The contractor could have walked away if he didn't like the price or the situation.
It is also not the homeowners fault that the contractor hired a guy who was too slow. It's THEIR responsibility to know who to hire, and which materials to buy at what price, etc. Doing a good job is MORE than just building properly. Meanwhile the homeowner has to deal with the annoyance of having the job go on too long. That's a pain in the butt, regardless of whether renovations "always take longer and cost more"
If the contractor is nice and doing a good job otherwise and you want to work with him on the price, that's very generous of you. But it really sounds like he's not organized and not very professional if he's coming up against these types of problems and expecting you to bail him out. If you have a contract then you're OK, you have some wiggle room (even to refuse him), but it almost sounds like he's taking you for a bit of a ride...
Posted by: herkimermaid at April 15, 2009 4:59 PM
Posts like these puzzle me. What exactly is a vague contract? Vague for you, but not the contractor? Vague for the contractor, but not for you? Was the bid vague too, was it itemized, or even in writing? From one contractor to the next, did the bids look essentially the same? Where were the discrepancies in line items and pricing? Were subsequent change orders and related charges committed to bid and writing? What were *your* efforts, work-, price- and material-wise, to clarify terms when the contractor suggested changes and additions or discovered unknown conditions? At what point does keeping things vague inevitably lead to dissatisfaction?
We liked the contractors we hired, too. But how much we liked them on first meet was very much a lesser factor in our decision-making of who to hire than the contractor's willingness and ability to present references, itemized bid, license, insurance, and thorough contract before work began. As it happens, we like and appreciate most of our various contractors even more after the fact, after weeks and sometimes months of exposure to their hard-working crews, high standards, admirable work ethic and finished products. We're learning a lot on the job, and the more and varied work we've had to undertake, the better we've learned how important it is to approach the bid and the contract as strictly business and fundamental to getting work started on the right foot. We bring the "liking" part into the equation once work has commenced. While we consciously strive to make the jobsite comfortable and workers welcome, everyone's focus remains on the work in question.
Posted by: vinca at April 15, 2009 7:06 PM
I don't know how many times I've misestimated something - usually time - and I never let the customer know. His goal should be to complete that job in a professional manner so you give him more work (and the chance to make this up a little) or refer him to your friends. The only time I ask for more money is when the customer asks me to do more - and sometimes - if it is something small and they are nice to work for - I will charge only for materials.
We should all be gratefull to have the work in this economy.
Steve
Posted by: thetinkerswagon at April 15, 2009 9:07 PM
All contractors are disorganized and a royal pain in the ass. There math skills are even worse.. There great at tap dancing through your wallet.
Posted by: Ysabelle at April 15, 2009 9:32 PM
All customers are disorganized and a royal pain in the ass. There math skills are even worse.. There great at tap dancing through your wallet. THEIR grammar skills are lacking as well :-)
Posted by: denton at April 15, 2009 10:38 PM
You have no obligation to pay him. If you choose not to pay him:
You should read the requirments of a contract for home improvement contractors on the NYC DOCA website. If he has not executed the contract with all the points they set forth, there is a very good chance a judge will dismiss the suit.
If there is no contract, he CANNOT put a mechanic's lien on your properoty - the judge will dismiss it nor can he sue you because that too will get dismissed.
If he is not licensed, any suit will be dismissed, the same with a lien. And DCA will be all over him.
DCA makes the requirements pretty plain.
Steve
Posted by: thetinkerswagon at April 16, 2009 7:40 AM
If your contractor is licensed with dca he can put a lien on your property and so can his suppliers if he doesn't pay them.
The subcontractors can do the same.
If you have a contract and the contractor is not licensed and you end up in court you might not have to pay him. it is up to the judge.
There is a two sided sword going on with the profession, licensing and the court system.
call dca and get a copy of the requirements for applying for hic lisence. It might be on the internet. it is a fun read.
you will learn all sorts of interesting things. now that is the gospel according to ysabelle.
i wish you the best of luck.
Posted by: Ysabelle at April 16, 2009 9:40 AM
Thanks for all the comments. My husband is a softie and agreed to give him the extra $ he was looking for. He has done a lot of things that were not contemplated as part of the job, but then he never said he was going to want money for those things. As I said, this is my first time working with a contractor, so I guess you live and learn. He did do a very good job though.
Posted by: Brooklynitetobe at April 16, 2009 9:46 AM
b2b, glad it worked out. Seems a lack of experience on your part and lack of communications skills on his part were the problem. If he did a good job, you're ahead of the game. You'll see the good job every day and soon forget about what it cost :-)
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 7:14 PM
The thing that caught my eye was you saying at the end, "he's done a very good job though." Shouldn't that be the biggest consideration here? Almost all construction projects take longer and cost more, and it is often true that contractors are unrealistically optimistic. The contractor made a mistake by lowering his price to get the job, probably hoping he'd somehow be able to pull it off, but the reality is that he needed the amount of money he quoted to do the job well. Taking a job out of desperation is a formula for disaster, which you've now experienced, and so has he. Contractors often make the mistake of doing things during a job and not pointing out to the homeowner that they are extras, it's only when they are in deeper that they realize they're losing money and ask for these things to be covered. Question: Do you think if you'd gone with either of the other two bids you would have gotten as good a job? What was it about this guy that made you choose him? I really hope you guys work it out because it sounds like there were good intentions and that in the end you are happy with the work.
Posted by: 121studio at April 17, 2009 12:11 PM
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