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April 16, 2009
Effect of Not Paying Rent?
I live in an illegal loft building in Bushwick and am sick of the conditions I live in. 3 of the apartments in the building have been robbed in the past 6 months and 4 people have been mugged in front of the building. I wrote the landlord about fixing the front door, which doesn't reliably shut and installing a cheap security camera system as he is collecting $100,000+ in rent per month on a building he rents out illegally and a building which has been broken into numerous times. Nothing fixed. After the latest break in on my floor I want out of my lease. I'm not trying to live rent free for years as you hear stories of people doing. I'm just done paying rent until I can find a new place. It's more that I don't want to get stuck with him keeping my last month and security deposit. I know that the landlord cannot collect back rent from me as the Certificate of Occupancy is commercial, but could not paying rent affect my credit? Would an eviction affect my credit? How long does the eviction process take in illegal lofts? Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks
Patrick
Comments
I agree with you schtoops 100 percent. I am having pretty much the same issues with my landlord. There is no use calling 311 the city has bigger problems to worry about. For years tenents had to pay and keep quiet. I heard the process usually takes 6 months but yiu can see what others say. I really don't care what happens to my credit score because if people with a poor credit score got to chance to buy a home they could not afford then you know what people like you and me should be intitled to a villa on the East side with no down payment!
Posted by: hannible at April 16, 2009 8:20 AM
You need to raise the stakes a little. If you want out of your lease both you and the LL need to sign a simple agreement making said lease between you and him written on such and such date null and void. If he refuses then you must threaten to inform the city as to the subterfuge. The city will, depending on how really dangerous the situation is, 1. vacate the building the same day or, 2. slap a million violations under the provision of misuse of the existing C of O. My experience is the LL will not only sign the agreement, he will give you money to leave. You just need some balls.
Posted by: modsquad at April 16, 2009 8:29 AM
It sounds like the only leverage you have is to use the "illegality" of the apartments against him. Offer to leave with your security deposit for not turning him in. Otherwise, if you stop paying rent you won't get anything back. Whether he turns you in to the credit agencies is questionable. Just don't look for an apartment where they want a reference from the previous landlord!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 8:30 AM
I checked the DOB website and there are open violations for "OCCUPANCY CONTRARY TO THAT ALLOWED BY THE CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY ISSUED 12/28/06 CLASSIFIED 1ST FLR FACTORY 2ND FLR & 3RD FLR ARTISTS STUDIOS AND 4TH FLR FACTORY. NOW BUILDING OCCUPIES AT 2ND FLR &." Modsquad, good advice on the null and void agreement. Once I find a new place I follow that route.
Posted by: schtoops at April 16, 2009 8:54 AM
Is your landlord Josh Guttman?
Posted by: brooklynschool at April 16, 2009 10:15 AM
Before you take up any of these ideas, I'd head to the Lower Manhattan Loft Tenants Housing Clinic. They've been helping people with all kinds of loft problems for more than 20 years. The Housing Clinic meets on Wednesday evenings, 6 to 7 p.m., in the Ceramics Room of St. Margaret's House, 49 Fulton Street (at the corner of Water Street).
Posted by: Iris at April 16, 2009 10:20 AM
You are in an incredibly strong position. The fines on the landlord for renting illegally apartments are huge, incredibly huge. The city may make you move, but fine, you are living in a terrible situation. Tell the landlord you are not paying rent and that if he wants to he can institute evicition proceedings against you and thereby alerting the city to the fact that he is in violation of the housing code and will be fined a hell of lot more than he gets in rent. He either does what you want or you stop paying and there is nothing he can do about it.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at April 16, 2009 10:55 AM
According to what you posted from the DOB website it looks like maybe your 1st floor unit isn't yet part of the violation. Room for negotiation.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 10:57 AM
A wise person collects power and does not use it.
I would think seriously about what it takes to protect yourself and your interests: figure out what you want, and what's best for everyone, and work to make that happen in a strong and positive way.
Leveraging no rent against crappy landlordship is going to lead to an ever-escalating war of disrespect and No Progress. It's good strategy if your goals are short-term--it makes sense if what you really want is to save up some money to move out with.
On the other hand, if your goal is to turn your loft into the kind of place you really want to live, then not paying rent isn't the best strategy. If you want to stay, you are going to have to figure out how to work with your landlord instead of against him. In that case, talking about how you are still paying your rent when you could decide not to may make him start listening...
Posted by: vanburenproud at April 16, 2009 11:22 AM
hmm...
someone rents "cool bushwick loft space."
that someone is an innocent rube unaware of any improprieties of living in an industrial building. an innocent artist type i bet.
same someone wants out cause the "cool" doesnt mean "safe."
same someone incapable of putting a lock on their own door. rather blame landlord.
same someone now looks for any hook to evade contract terms.
now all the other someones on this site waive their hands and say, bad, evil landlord.
i call b.s.
we all understand this situation.
no sympathy here.
Posted by: bkn4life at April 16, 2009 12:07 PM
the discussion is losing a little focus here. i just want to make sure that not paying rent won't affect my credit score. i'm looking to find a place by june 1st, but would like the flexibility of july 1st if i can't find anything suitable. the landlord has last month and a security deposit so if i'm out june 1st all accounts are settled as far as i'm concerned.
also, the building has 8 open violations against it 3 of which are "hazardous." the landlord is collecting a lot money for these illegal lofts and can't respond to simple requests like making sure that the front door to the building closes properly to ensure the safety of his tenants. and as far as i'm concerned there is no contractual obligation between us. he knows he's in violation of the law and that i'm living in my "commercial loft" with the illegally installed full bathroom and kitchen.
Posted by: schtoops at April 16, 2009 12:56 PM
Schtoops, I will try to answer your real question.
I don't see how a missed rent payment, without more, can end up on your credit score. But if it goes to court, the existence of a legal proceeding, whether for eviction or for nonpaymetn, is a public record which will show up on the kinds of checks that many landlords do on prospective tenants in connection with a credit check. Also, any decent landlord for your new place is going to ask you why you are moving and may ask for your landlord's name and number. So be prepared and if you fudge too much, the new LL will be suspicious of you and you won't get the place.
There are bad landlords and there are bad tenants. I've taken tenants before who were honest with me about disputes they had with previous landlords and was very happy with the tenants.
Posted by: slopefarm at April 16, 2009 1:31 PM
I'm leaning more towards bkn4life's version... You can't blame the landlord for the people getting mugged in front. It's Bushwick, ya heard?
And I also would ask why all of you folx who have been robbed don't just get together and see if you can improve the security of the front door yourselves? If there's six of you and you kick in $200 each you should be able to get a new door and lock for the front.
What VBP said, plus if he gets a judgment against you and turns it over to a collection agency for payment, it could very well end up ion your credit report. Chances are this wouldn't happen, but it could.
8 violations for an old building in da bush aren't all that many, believe it or not.
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 2:01 PM
this is the perfect post to be on the same day as the post about the meserole condos. typical liberal BS on this site as always. the condo's suck, but this guy, who gave the Hassids money when he shouldn't of, which allows them to build condo's that suck, gets advice! and sympathy! gross!!!!! does no one understand that when you break the law, that there are repercussions??
this is how the hassids make money in north brooklyn. they break zillions of laws, and people go along with it. stop giving them money if you don't want to see poorly built condos!
the poster is an asshole.
sorry dude, but your illegal rental makes you a criminal - let's skip the euphemisms. you are someone who feels that they are above the law and can go by a different set of rules. here's your punishment. accept it and move on a try to obey the law.
Posted by: wine lover at April 16, 2009 2:22 PM
"Effect of Not Paying Rent?"
"BOOM BOOM BOOM...City Marshall, open up!"
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at April 16, 2009 2:31 PM
Don't worry it will not make you more of a criminal than all those liers that lied about their income on their mortgage applications. There are so many empty rentals around New York City I don't think credit checks are on a homerenters mind now.
Posted by: hannible at April 16, 2009 2:43 PM
No one said that the building was owned by Hasids (the correct spelling, winelover- although why I should expect a barely literate antisemite to spell correctly, I'll never know.) But go ahead, assume away and rant.
Posted by: bxgrl at April 16, 2009 4:00 PM
You could just tell him you want to break the lease because the building is unsafe and you want your security deposit back.
You can both sign a termination agreement, and if he doesn't return the deposit in a month, you can take him to landlord or small claims court.
If you think you will never see the money, you could try this alternative.
Verbally notify him you are leaving because the building is unsafe, and tell him to use your last month's rent. You could then let him know at the end of the month that you have been unable to find a place, and to please use your security as last month's rent.
When you move out, be sure to take photos to document that everything is in good order and that you have left the premises. Give him the keys. Be sure to leave a forwarding address.
Your biggest worry could be that he will bring a suit against you for breaking the lease (though I guess this is unlikely for reasons you mention above). If he serves you papers at your old address and you don't know about the suit, and don't show up, you automatically lose. The court case will be recorded and a judgement filed, and he can send it to a collection agency and ruin your credit.
Posted by: mopar at April 16, 2009 4:13 PM
winelover, I think you are being a bit harsh on the OP. According to his profile he's 27, and who knows how long he's been in NYC. It takes a while to understand that only in NYC can a landlord rent out illegal space and get away with it for years. I don't see how you get off calling the OP a criminal. The landlord is. And pls see my earlier post, I'd hardly call it an expression of left wing thinking :-)
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 4:35 PM
Denton's right. OP is only aiding and abetting a criminal by knowingly renting an illegal apartment.
Posted by: DrPangloss at April 16, 2009 4:48 PM
"i just want to make sure that not paying rent won't affect my credit score."
You're willingly living in an illegal, dangerous (by your own description) industrial building, and you're worried about your CREDIT SCORE?? Jesus. I'm with bkn4life. No sympathy whatsoever! The whole thing is ridiculous.
Posted by: East New York at April 16, 2009 5:49 PM
"According to his profile he's 27, and who knows how long he's been in NYC. It takes a while to understand that only in NYC can a landlord rent out illegal space and get away with it for years."
What in God's name are you talking about?? Isn't a 27 year-old an ADULT? Exactly how long DOES it take for an adult to understand that a landlord can subvert the law and not get caught. The OP was the one who said the apartment was illegal - he already KNOWS it's illegal!! He's just as much a criminal as the landlord! Get real!!
Posted by: East New York at April 16, 2009 5:59 PM
I repeat: go to the LMLT Housing Clinic next week.
Posted by: Iris at April 16, 2009 6:16 PM
just to throw more water on the fire.
if you own a building and get a hazardous violation and you challenge it in court you will find:
a) the inspectors are not architects or engineers.
b) hazardous does not have the same meaning to the building department as you and i. that is hazardous isnt really all that bad. it means solely that the moron inspector couldnt get to the spot he thinks "might" be dangerous to perform an inspection he is incompetent to perform. as such the burden, expensive, falls on you to prove your building safe. not the building department proving it unsafe.
in a city that generates violations from complaints it means you can get a pile of violations based on shitheads like the OP who want to game the system both ways.
so dont go screaming like chicken little cause a building has violations. its a very common thing for building to get violations because the newbie doesnt like the coffee roaster that has been in the neighborhood for 100 years.
Posted by: bkn4life at April 16, 2009 6:20 PM
Hi all. I've been a long time lurker to this wonderful and informative site and its only after reading this post have I actually felt compelled to opine.
The OP states he willingly and knowingly entered into an illegal arrangement and is now looking for some legal remedy to his problems? The landlord is renting out illegal apartments and you were fine with circumventing the law so long as you benefited from it but now want to use those very laws to protect you? You want to welch out of a deal, not honor a contract with a dishonorable person and not have to deal with any possible consequences? As the saying goes "there is no honor among thieves", so you can very well expect you landlord to "steal" your rent as you intend to "rob" him of payment of it or continue renting in some other unregulated building that undermines rent laws but saves your bottom line.
But let's ignore the legal and moral issues for a moment; aren't you the least bit embarrassed or feel foolish in your utter lack of self awareness? You can't figure a way to improve your buildings situation and bill the landlord for it? You can't just up and move in the middle of the night?
As a side note; to all the posters that reflexively demonized the landlord and blindly supported this dope as if he were a honest law abiding renter; shame on you.
Sigh...I'm done venting and it felt good.
Posted by: zucko at April 16, 2009 6:38 PM
Zucko, at no point did the OP state he knew what was going on when he entered into the arrangement. He may have, but he didn't state that. He may also have found out afterwards. But we don't know.
ENY, I'm glad when you turned 18, you immediately knew everything there was to know about NYC housing laws. You're a better man than me, for sure. But the fact that the OP IS worried about his credit puts him a step ahead of some other bitter renters on this site, some of whom can't even manage to file a tax return and could care less about their credit.
NYC is a tough place. Seems like the OP has paid his dues. Maybe The What will chime in and tell him to get his sorry ass out of the hood and back to Ohio, lol.
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 7:08 PM
Schtoops:
1. I think that "mopar at April 16, 2009 4:13 PM", gave thoughtful advice.
2. I have been looking into "nuisance statutes". Look them up for NY State and Brooklyn. You may be able to hold the landlord accountable for what happens on his property using "nuisance statutes" (look for topic of accountable landlord).
Sorry I have limited time to write today, or I'd research some of this now.
3. Good luck!
Don't know what is the matter with angry posters. Guess it is a cultural thing of anonymous posting and Mr. Hyde pops out.
Posted by: BklynSoFar at April 16, 2009 7:09 PM
This site is turning into a curbed style hellhole full of pukefaced SMF's. All this dooosh of a landlord has to do is secure the front door. Then there's nothing but the 'hood or the OP to blame. Instead, you just blame the OP.
Posted by: MAT at April 16, 2009 8:02 PM
Denton, you're right, the OP didn't say explicitly HE did anything wrong or illegal, most irresponsible self-pitying fools don't. Notice he could list in detail how the landlord is raking in large sums of profit and the quality of the security system but is naive when it comes to signing a lease. You don't think that he should have been suspect that the unusually low rent he was paying was too good to be true and a red flag? No, I suspect he knows more than he lets on.
Posted by: zucko at April 16, 2009 10:28 PM
MAT, based on what the OP said it leads you to believe that "all this dooosh of a landlord has to do is secure the front door" but there's more to it. What does it matter if the landlord is making $1, $100,000 or $1 million dollars? The OP painted a picture that stacks the deck in his favor and it set off my BS detector.
I point to exhibit A:"I'm just done paying rent until I can find a new place." Ughh. Find the new place within 2 months (the cost of last month and security deposit) and then move into it, don't expect to be "carried" for a few months. Had he asked for advice on how to get the landlord to pay for fixing the door or upgrading the security system in his building then he'd have my sympathy. Instead he just asks for ways to bust a contract and that doesn't sit well with me.
Posted by: zucko at April 16, 2009 11:17 PM
"ENY, I'm glad when you turned 18, you immediately knew everything there was to know about NYC housing laws. You're a better man than me, for sure."
Get serious. I never said I "immediately knew everything there was to know about NYC housing laws" when I turned , but I DAMN SURE would have been able to figure out whether or not I was renting an apartment in an illegal building by the time I was in my late 20s! And if YOU wouldn't have at that time in your life, you're right - I'm a better man than you, at least in that sense. And, as I mentioned the OP ADMITTED the building was illegal. For some reason, you want to give him a break for being a disingenuous jerk.
"NYC is a tough place. Seems like the OP has paid his dues."
Bulls**t. He broke the law and he's now asking advice on how to figure a way out that will leave him smelling like a rose. It's sickening at best.
Posted by: East New York at April 17, 2009 12:24 PM
Mopar gives good advice. If you "walk on your security deposit" meaning you don't pay your last month's rent and let him keep the deposit, then you leave (having done no damage to the unit) he probably won't try anything. It wouldn't be in his best interest to chase after you or destroy your credit. You're gone, he can rerent the unit. If you continue to act the smart ass and cop a few months free rent, you deserve whatever is coming to you. It is bad karma to try to get a freebie citing violations when you were clearly smart enough to know what you signed up for. I wouldn't want to stay in an unsafe place either and it is best for you to move. Have you tried to sublet your place for the remainder of the lease? I don't think anyone has mentioned that possibility yet.
Posted by: bqe1970 at April 19, 2009 12:11 AM
back in 2000, 9 years ago, a similar situation happened to a friend of mine. No robberies that I knew of, but an illegally rented commercial loft building in williamsburg, etc,etc. Somehow the city found out about it, kicked all tenants out, and shut down the building.
If I were you, I would just move asap without kicking up too much dirt. Alert the other tenants as well, because basically, as others have pointed out, the tenants are part of the illegality of the whole thing.
Posted by: townhouser at April 19, 2009 11:45 AM
Folks, almost every loft building in Bushwick is residential and all but three are illegal. Three have been evacuated by city order. Mostly the city turns a blind eye.
Posted by: mopar at April 20, 2009 6:34 PM
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